69. My Personal Story of Overcoming Porn Addiction | A Human Theatre Podcast Episode w/ Jeremy Lipkowitz and Kelsey Buchalter

Today I am sharing my own story with porn addiction. I've done this now a couple times (sharing my own story) but this conversation pulls out a few new details about my story, and offers more insight into the world of mindfulness and addiction, so I felt it would be helpful to share this one as well. 

In this episode we dive deep into 

• what addiction is, 
• what porn addiction is, 
• its prevalence, signs and symptoms
• and my own insight and practical tips on overcoming rock bottoms, dealing with shame, embracing sexuality and much MUCH MORE! 

Even if Porn may not be your addiction, this episode will be helpful and relevant to any addiction. So if you, or anyone you know, are struggling with addiction of any kind, please listen to and share this episode far and wide!

If you enjoyed this convo, you should also consider going and checking out more of Kelsey's Interview on the Human Theater Podcast!

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ABOUT JEREMY LIPKOWTZ

JEREMY IS A MEDITATION TEACHER, LIFE COACH, AND DIGITAL HABITS EXPERT WHO WORKS WITH ENTREPRENEURS, EXECUTIVES, AND LEADERS.

Jeremy overcame addiction, shame, self-judgement, and depression in his early twenties with the help of mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness not only helped him let go of destructive behaviors, it also allowed him to connect with deeper meaning and purpose in his life.

For the past 10 years Jeremy has been teaching mindfulness and emotional intelligence practices at universities, recovery centers, and companies throughout Asia and the US. He holds a Bachelors and Master’s degree in Genetics and Genomics, and spent several years at Duke University working towards a PhD in Genetics & Systems Biology before he turned full-time to teaching mindfulness.

Jeremy is also an ICF certified Executive Coach. As a former scientist and academic, Jeremy has a great passion for bringing his EI based coaching skills into the corporate and professional world. He realizes how powerful & transformative these practices can be for skeptics and senior-level managers. He is known for his calm and grounded demeanor, his expertise in habits and high-performance, and his compassionate approach to transformation.

Coaching Certifications

* CPCC, Co-Active Training Institute
* ICF Member
* ACC International Coaching Federation

Jeremy is a Certified Teacher with the Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute, a mindfulness-based emotional intelligence program initially developed at Google. He also spent time living and training as a fully-ordained Buddhist monk in Myanmar. He now combines his science-based expertise with a hunger for personal development to help others discipline their minds and achieve genuine inner- peace and fulfillment.  

Transcript

 You're listening to the unhooked podcast. Hello friends. Welcome back to the show. Today I am sharing an interview that I recently did on the human theater podcast about my own story with pointed addiction. I've done this now a couple of times sharing my own story, but this conversation pulls out a few new details about my story. And offers more insight into the world of mindfulness and addiction in general. So I felt it would be helpful to share this one as well. In this episode, Kelsey, the host of the human theater podcast and I dive deep into what addiction is. What porn addiction is, it's prevalent signs and symptoms and my own insight and practical tips on overcoming rock bottoms. Dealing with shame. Embracing sexuality and much, much more. Even if porn may not be your addiction, this episode will be helpful and relevant to any addiction. So if you or anyone, you know, are struggling with addiction of any kind. Please listen and share this episode far and wide. And if you enjoyed this convo, you should also consider going and checking out more of Kelsey's work and her interviews. On the human theater podcast. So without further ado. Here is my conversation about the porn industry and overcoming pointed addiction. With Kelsey Buchalter on the human theater podcast. 



Jeremy Lipkowitz, welcome to the Human Theater Podcast. 



I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me. 



Where in the world are you speaking to us from 



So at the moment, I am in Cape Town, South Africa  

Awesome. How are you enjoying Cape Town so far? 

so far it's lovely. Some, you know, some of the most beautiful scenery that I've ever seen as the mountains, the ocean, great hiking and sunsets and, and good weather

during the winter also.  

Yeah, no, Cape Town is very, very special.  Well, I, this is a first for the Human Theater Podcast and to be honest, a first for me as well. Um, but before we dive into the nitty gritty and I suppose more  . Of an in depth masterclass.  I would love to ask you your ama, like just your backstory because you have an amazing backstory and an amazing bio and how, how deep you wanna go.

It's totally your reign. But I would love to get into your backstory and what brought you to where you are today. 

Yeah, so my backstory is long and convoluted and, and complex. Um, but I guess for the listener's sake, you know, what's important to know, my backstory really is in the sciences. So I spent a lot of my, my youth training as a scientist and working towards a PhD,  uh, in genetics and genomics. My love was always in, in the sciences, and I had big aspirations to be a research professor someday. Um, and so I was just on that track, you know, just kind of doing the normal thing, going to school, getting good grades, doing research,  uh, and at some point in, in college, I started recognizing  . ,the signs of, of what I now realize as porn addiction. Uh, and it went beyond porn addiction. It was all kinds of addictions, addiction to  validation, addiction to, uh, success, addiction to pleasure, um, alcohol, you know, was another thing, sugar.  And so I started recognizing that I kind of had these problems going on in my life beneath the surface. So on the outside, my life was going great. I was a stellar student, uh, you know, doing well in school, doing well in my research, had a lot of friends. Um, but on the inside my life was kind of a mess. And so that prompted some time of self-inquiry and self-awareness.  I was fortunate enough to, to take some time off between undergrad and going to grad school where I ended up going to India and  I. Started really getting into meditation and mindfulness and Buddhist philosophy, and that just opened my eyes to a lot of what was going on in my life. Um,  highlighted some of the, the important issues with  kind of seeking pleasure and running away from pain. Uh, and it changed my life really. You know, I started recognizing what real happiness and real fulfillment were.  So when I got back to the US and started attending grad school, I started teaching meditation just as a way to keep myself accountable.

You know, just offering a morning meditation and saying, whoever wants to show up can, can come join me.  And I did that for about four and a half years and just found that I was way more passionate about teaching people, about understanding their mind, understanding What's going on in their life and, and where to find real happiness. So I ended up leaving  my  graduate studies, leaving my PhD program and have been  teaching meditation and mindfulness ever since. That was about  12 years ago, I suppose. Um, no, I guess 12 years ago is when I started teaching. And then it was around 20 16, 20 15  that I'd left the PhD program. So about eight years that I've been doing it full-time.  And then to make a long story short, about five years ago, you know, I realized that there are a lot of people still struggling with  porn addiction, the thing that got me into all of this in the beginning. And so I started helping people,  you know, essentially just how to get out of porn addiction through the same method that I used.

Uh, and I've been doing that ever since, and it's been

a very fulfilling journey for me.  

Yeah. Amazing. I, before we dive deep into that side of things, I just wanna double click on,  I suppose, your journey through Eastern philosophy. It's something that really resonated with me in my journey as well. I also found, well, I did a yoga instructors course and my eyes were opened to the Eastern philosophy as well, and I would just be interested to know,  Hmm. 

You know, with your scientific background as well,  what,  are there any like  . Were there any standouts within the philosophy that you think  were  significant enough to have embarked this journey of healing ultimately within you? Like if there were any specific things that really were like revelatory. 

Yeah. I mean, there were so many, so, you know, I'll try to, uh, just pick out the most important ones. I, I would say one of the most important  insights that I had that came from,  it wasn't just, you know, Eastern philosophy, it was kind of the combination of both Eastern philosophy and, and western  neuroscience and understanding of how the mind actually works.  But I remember reading this book  that was written by Tibetan Monk who has a background in molecular genetics. So the book is Happiness by Mitsu Ricard,  and he was writing about some of the neuroscience of meditation and what we're doing.  And there was this one quote, you know, that he quoted a neuroscientist.

And this quote, you know, it says, neurons that fire together wire together.  And essentially it's the understanding that the more frequently you think certain types of thoughts in certain thought patterns, the stronger those neural pathways become.  And that was so insightful for me because one of the main things that I was struggling with because of my porn addiction was  always experiencing this kind of lust, this craving,  this desire for, for sex, for intimacy, um, for pleasure. And that  neural pathway in my mind had been  so strengthened by years and years of acting on my,  my porn habit. Uh, and what I realized is that I was the one creating those neural pathways in my mind. I was strengthening those neural pathways of lust,  you know, and the other thing that I started to realize, and this comes more from the Eastern philosophy, but  it's a universal truth.

You, it's just, you can't really argue against it. But realizing that lust itself or craving itself was a state of suffering. You know, when you want something that you don't have,  that fundamentally is what suffering is, is. Suffering is any kind of form or case of there's something that you want that you don't have and you suffer because of it. Or there's something that you do have and you don't want it. It's the flip side, the exact same thing. It's like you have some mental state and you don't want it, and you're pushing it away and resisting it, that you know you're suffering. Similarly, there's something you're craving, oh, I want this, I want that. And if you don't have it, you're suffering. And so what I realized is that, you know, so much of my life was suffering. 'cause I was always looking at these things that I didn't have. Whether it was a nicer body,  you know, more gadgets, more validation, more sex,  all these things that I wanted. And so I was creating  the conditions of suffering and I was strengthening those conditions through my actions. So those were kind of the two big insights that came. Um.  The one last thing I'll say that that was really  powerful for me was realizing again, that I could cultivate  the very mental qualities that lead to happiness. You know, what I realized is I want to be happy. I wanna be fulfilled and happy and live a meaningful life.  And those things you can cultivate the mental qualities that directly give you those things. You know, you can cultivate gratitude, you can cultivate love and kindness. You can cultivate patience, you can cultivate all these things, and it's just strengthening those neural pathways,

and that's what meditation is. So those are

some of the things that really struck me.  

Gosh, that's so powerful. The, your second point really made me think of just the eastern philosophy's basic premise that you are born whole and you are born enough and everything external to you is merely an attachment. Um, and then on your last point,  I forgot who it was, but I heard them say that if you cannot find something that you're grateful for, you're just not looking hard enough because there is always something that we can be  grateful for,  but gosh, that's powerful.

I'm always interested to know this because again, the east can teach us so much. Um, so and I, when you kind of zoom out, there is so many  parallels to science, even so to discount Eastern philosophy, just from a stigma or just because it's Eastern philosophy, is I think a real shame in today's world because I think all of us can find. 

Many things that can help us on our respective journeys. Um,  but 

I 

think I would 

I want to touch on that one point because I think this you, you might have some listeners who are very much similar to me, but for all of my life I was very allergic to anything that felt kind of spiritual.  It felt religious. You know, I grew up in a kind of conservative religious household and was always  Just not into it. I was kind of forced to go to church in these ways and, and I didn't like it. And  so I was always very skeptical, very allergic. Like if something felt religious or spiritual or fluffy, I was like, oh, this is just nonsense for people who don't know how to study science.  And  that really kept me away from some of these, you know, wisdom traditions.  And I think what what was really important for me was understanding,  at least in Buddhism, and this is one of the things I really love about Buddhism, it's not about having a belief in some higher power or some  dogma that you have to have blind faith in  Buddhism is really about understanding the way the mind works, looking at the dynamics of the mind and  investigating your own experience, like looking at your own life and saying, okay, when I do this kind of thing.  What are the results and consequences? Is there more happiness or is there more suffering? And when I do these other kinds of things again, what is the result? You know, when I lie, does that bring happiness or does it bring suffering? When I have craving, what is the result? Is it happiness or suffering? So you're just looking, you're kind of like becoming a scientist of your own mind, uh, and you don't have to believe anything.

You don't have to believe in reincarnation or any of these other things. It's just a way of kind of looking at how does your mind work

and what leads to happiness.  

It is really the ultimate like human optimization. Um, it just takes you to your highest potential And  yeah, I think there is  huge validity to it and I think more and more people are definitely cottoning on. Um.  As Mormon, more people just cannot cope in the world today. Um, but yeah, there is, there, I speak a lot about ancestral wisdom and spiritual wisdom and  yeah, I think it needs to be spoken more about.

So again, thank you for like, also  just wanna commend you for being open-minded, especially coming from such a scientific and conservative, you know, upbringing and background. Um,  because  I, I also resonate with like being way too  evidence-based and not enough, like, well, not evidence-based, but like evidence bound.

Like if it's not in a scientific paper, then it doesn't exist type of thing. But that's  kind of completely unrealistic and yeah, I'm not gonna dive into the whole rabbit hole of scientific papers and  some, yeah. Anyway,  uh, but thank you for that.  Um,  so  . I wanna start very, very basic.  I want to ask you how you would define porn addiction,  and also I would also like to ask you how you would define addiction in and of itself. 

Hmm. Well, let's, let's start with addiction first, and then we can get into porn Addiction. Addiction. is really any behavior or habit that you continue to do despite the negative consequences that it's causing in your life. Um, I. You can get a lot more nuanced with the definition, but really that's kind of the baseline is, is there something that you keep doing  despite it being a negative, IM having a negative impact on your life despite it causing harm in your life in some way.  And what's important, you know, once we start to look at some of the nuances of it, is it's important to look at, you know, the net, uh, impact on your life because there are some things that have some negative impact on your life, but it brings more joy and happiness and connection on the whole,  that might not necessarily be an addiction, right?

Like it may be causes some short term pain,  but on the whole, it's bringing

you a lot of joy or fulfillment or, you know, 

Can you give an example?  

Yeah. I mean, going to the gym,  you know, it's causing a, a negative impact. At first. It's like, oh, this is painful,  you know, I'm sweaty, this is, you know, whatever.  But on the whole, it's like, okay, it's actually making me healthier, you know, I'm, I'm. Curing myself from some diseases, some illnesses. Um, so, you know, that's an example. Um, you could also think of like,  you know, let's take a, a minor one. Like, let's say you,  let's say you are really addicted to rock climbing. Um, I love rock climbing, right? There might be some negative consequences to my love of rock climbing.

Like maybe it takes time away from,  from work that I could be doing. And you could say, okay, well it's having negative consequences because I'm not working as focused as I could be. But on the whole, you know, it's giving me more energy. We know that when you're happier, you do better work anyways. And so it's like, it's important, and this is particularly important when we're gonna talk later about porn addiction, to look at the holistic impact of something on the whole, is it causing more harm than it's doing good?  So, you know, the, the obvious addictions, alcohol addiction,  gambling, addiction, um, you know, drug addictions.  It's not too hard to see and say, wow, okay, this is really causing a lot of harm in my life.  And,  and it's not bringing that much benefit. It brings me some numbness, some escape. Um,  it's, you know, when we look at addiction, there's also kind of, it's important to look at,  do you, like,  are you able to stop?

You know, if, if something,  if there's something, and then once you recognize that it's causing harm in your life and you say, okay, I wanna stop, and you can stop, you might not be addicted, right? So there's some aspect of this addiction that there's almost like a little bit of powerlessness. Like, you know, it's bad for you and yet you can't stop doing it.

You almost don't want to because you're addicted. You keep going back  despite knowing it's harming your life.  So that's, you know, a little bit of, of understanding what is an addiction. And I use the term very broadly. You know, it's, there's a spectrum of addictions. Like  many of us are addicted to our smartphones. We use them  more often than we should, and it's causing harm in our personal life, our relationships, our work life,  our mental health.  And we in some ways are kind of powerless to stop it. We're not powerless. But you know, it's like we keep going back despite almost all of us knowing that we should spend less time on our phones. Right?  I would classify that as an addictive habit.  And so for some people out there listening who wanna be more strict about it, you can call it a compulsive behavior. You can say it's problematic behavior. Some people like to not say it's porn addiction, but problematic porn use.  Personally, I don't really care what terms you use.

It's just asking the question, is this thing causing harm in your life? And you know, can you

stop it?  

Thank you,  um,  with porn addiction.  It's,  you know,  I know. Well, I'm gonna advise anyone who may be interested or know, or even struggling themself to definitely check out your page and your podcast for sure. But  where, like, how common  is porn addiction?   

Hmm. 

and because  there is a huge taboo about it. I mean porn in and of itself, and even masturbation, et cetera, even sex is a taboo topic for a lot of people. 

So in your work, like how common is porn addiction? 

Yeah. Well, so I guess, you know, I didn't answer the second part of your question, which is  Um, you know, how do you define porn addiction?  But you really just use that same definition. You say, okay, is this habit of mine  causing harm in my life? On the whole, and I think what's important, again, to recognize is the holistic approach, because most people recognize the benefits that it brings, which is,  you know, distraction,  pleasure, uh, excitement.

You know, it, it provides some benefit to people's lives.  But then you have to start looking, and this is where most people can't recognize it because a lot of the consequences of porn addiction.  are subtle and long term and downstream. So they affect us slowly over time in terms of how we relate to the people in our life.

You know, are we objectifying people more? Are we treating them more like objects? Are we screwing with our dopamine systems or, you know, dopamine signaling in our brains because these are hyper stimulants and the dopaminergic response is just out of control. Um, also our, our relationship with ourself, our sense of self-worth and integrity.  lot of these, uh, porn habits can escalate. And so, you know, over time you need more and more extreme or more and more kind of, uh, triggering things to get you aroused, um, erectile dysfunction. There's all kinds of things that people don't  recognize are coming from their porn habit,  and in part it's because many people have been using this substance. Since they were very young. I mean, most boys, you know, start looking at pornographic things before they're 10, you know, 7, 8, 9, especially now that everyone has a smartphone. Right. You know, if  kids are curious, right. And sexuality is part of who we are, and it's a beautiful part, and kids are gonna get curious and just kind of explore that.

And, and so it's a, it's a thing that people can get lost in. Um,  in terms of how common it is,  you mentioned, you know, it's a taboo thing, right?  And porn, it's a ta so fascinating because  it's, it's both, it's like, it's normalized to the extent that everyone  just assumes that everyone's watching porn and there's not really a big deal about it. Like, oh, it's just porn.  It's not, you know, it's not a harmful thing. Like what's the big deal?  And yet it's also very taboo. And you know, if somebody gets caught looking at porn at work, they get fired. Right? And so it's like this very strange  paradox that it is both  hyper normalized  and at the same time it's hyper taboo and hyper  kind of

shunned in our society and very sensitive.

I wonder 

if that contributes. I wonder if that contributes to like the addiction of it. 

definitely a hundred percent because it's one of these things that if someone is struggling with it, if they need help,  they feel like they can't, you know, because it's so sensitive, because it's so shameful. Nobody wants to talk about the porn that they watch or that they have a problem with it. And so people don't seek help.

That because there's this, I mean, we can have the conversation around shame, but shame is such a huge thing.  I, porn and sex addiction, people feel so much shame around their sexuality.  And so it definitely contributes because people feel isolated. They feel like they can't talk about it.  You know, it's very hard for somebody to say, yeah, I think I'm, you know, I'm kind of having some, some trouble with, with porn.

I think it's getting a little out of control.  Um,  and then also, you know, just, yeah, the, the taboo of it is such a, a big thing. So there's a few things that make porn highly addictive,

and that's one of them.  

Is it like, would you say there's a, an equal split between men and women, or is it more common in men or doesn't it make a difference? 

Yeah, it's way more common in men. Um,  there is porn addiction in women, and women definitely watch porn.  Uh, it is, but it's not, it's not 50 50. Uh, it's not, it's not equal ratios in men, as it is in women. Men do watch more porn and are more easily  addicted.  Um,  and there's many reasons for this kind of physiological reasons,  evolutionary reasons of why men are more kind of visually, uh, stimulated  and, you know, women just aren't as much,  and  so men do get it more, but women, and it's on the rise as well.

More and more women are getting

addicted to it.  

I would love to speak about like the porn industry because you know, in very brief conversation with you about porn addiction and also I suppose education. Well, educating myself and preparing myself for this episode. It almost seems that there is like a parallel of like the porn industry and like . Big food and big pharma where there's like a whole lot of junk and a whole lot of politics.

Um,  yeah. I dunno. If you wanna maybe paint a picture of like the porn industry that maybe people like the dark side, I suppose. 

well there's so many angles to look at this at, you know, it, you know, porn is an industry and I think, you know, one statistic which might blow people's minds is that the porn industry makes more than all the major sports leagues in the US combined. So the NFL, the MLB, the NBA,  all of the major sports leagues, like the porn industry is a bigger industry than all of

those industries combined. So there is just so much money in this industry, you know, it's just this, you know, billions and billions of dollars in this industry, and it's, it's this huge kind of underbelly of, of, stuff that's going on in the US to look at the dark side, you know, it, it could get really dark in terms of.  The connection between kind of porn and porn websites and sex trafficking. Um,  you know, there's a lot of links between sex trafficking and porn.  Um, so, you know, you can look at really the dark, dark side of it. There's also just  kind of the, the normal dark side of it, which is how these actors and actresses get treated. There's a lot of abuse, there's a lot of coercion, there's a lot of, you know, young men and women getting sucked into these things that end up getting treated in ways that they later regret. Um,  and so it's, it can get very dark, of course, you know, playing devil's advocate. Yes, there is ethical porn out there. Not a hundred percent of porn is  sex trafficked. And, you know, rape porn videos is, there are ethical porn videos out there, but  99% of what you see on the homepage of PornHub is.  You know, violent, degrading towards women. You know, it's, it's just, it's like  to make, because some people make that argument. They say, well, not all porn is, is like this, and, but the majority of what's getting pushed out there is the stuff

that's kind of harmful.  

Gosh. 

that's, I mean, just on that note, just the kind of  porn is a fantasy. Porn is not a depiction of real intimacy. It's a fantasy. And because of that, the most extreme things are the things that end up getting the most airtime. And so that's one of the other consequences we have to look at is how is this impacting young men and young women in terms of what they're learning about intimacy, learning about sex. Because on the homepage these days, you know, all you see is, you know, choking,  double penetration, slapping, anal, like all these things that.  In a consensual relationship where you have two people who know what they're interested in, they know about boundaries, that's fine. But when you get a 12-year-old boy or a 12-year-old girl who's watching this and they're seeing 95% is that they're thinking, this is what sex looks like.  This is what I am supposed to be into.  You know, one of the other things that I, I tell this kind of analogy often, but  in porn, you never ever see a girl saying no to sex. Right? You never see a girl saying, Hey, I'm not interested right now, and the guy respecting that, because then it's not porn, right? But what is this doing to then young boys and young girls' perception,  they're learning that they're not allowed to say no, that if someone approaches them, if someone gropes them, they need to always be in the mood and they're not allowed to say no to it.  just the very subtle ways that this is kind of influencing  you know, the

minds of men And women.  

Yeah. And I, I would love to get deeper into that. I know body dysmorphia is another big thing, but I mean, we don't even have to go as far as porn. Like we can just stop at a movie and how even a movie glamorizes sex and almost offers most of the time a very unrealistic expectation of what sex is. And it's like, oh, okay, the male is finished now that's over and that's all that matters.

Like, that's sex, you know?  So

we don't even have to go as far as porn, but of course, I mean, it's just heightens everything else.  But, um,  . Yeah, I'd love to speak about specifically the relationship with our bodies and body dysmorphia and just unrealistic expectations of what sex and intimacy or healthy sex and intimacy is because, I mean, I think these are topics that relate and resonate with a lot of people, specifically myself. 

Yeah.  Yeah. This again, so many topics that we can dive into, but you know, the main theme of um, is unrealistic expectations and how it's impacting  our expectations of what our partners are supposed to look like and what we are supposed to look like. You know, one of the things that I recognized in my own addiction was realizing that every, you know, 'cause I was watching porn every night for an hour, maybe more, you know, up until I was 23, you know, 24.  And every night that I would log in, you know, I'd be seeing hundreds if not thousands of different. Faces, bodies, positions, and they were all, you know, young, attractive kind of people that fit my idea of what a perfect body looked like. And so of course, this is going to be  impacting and giving me unrealistic expectations for, you know, anyone that I would be with in real life is I was, you know, expecting, oh, everyone looks like this 20-year-old porn star that I'm looking at.  Um, the other thing that happens is you get addicted to novelty. You know, because again, every time you see a new face, a new body, it gives you that little dopamine hit of, ooh, something exciting is about to happen.  And you start getting addicted to that feeling of, I want something new.  So this is another one of the kind of downsides that can happen, that can show up in your relationships.

Like, oh, this person's perfect, but  after two weeks, I'm just kind of bored because my mind is addicted to novelty. I don't want the same,  you know, person who's a nine out of 10. I just want a different person. Right. So that's some of what can go on. And then, yeah, body dysmorphia, it's something that  I've struggled with.

You know, it's, it's not necess my body. Dysmorphia didn't necessarily come from, uh, just from porn, but I think it was exacerbated and heightened by it. But just, again, all the ways that we're comparing ourselves to what we're seeing in fantasy  and the ways that that can screw

with our minds.  

Yeah. Gosh.  I,  I wanted to ask like,  'cause I, I did kind of wanna ask you like your personal experience with porn addiction. I dunno how  . Open you want to be, but I also underpinning this question, I kind of wanna like dig into whether you think addiction is the right word. Because I also know that like some people can also come from another lens and be like, well, porn was actually really helpful for our relationship.

It's in, it inspired, you know, exploration. So I suppose there are pros and cons to everything, but yeah, I just wanted to gather your thoughts on, I suppose, pros and cons. And then also I know that you wanted to speak about like if addiction is an appropriate word to use for something like porn. 

Yeah.  So I guess, you know, there's a couple questions in there. So one is, yes, there are a hundred percent examples of people, particularly people in relationships who will say, oh, this is, has been helpful for me and my partner,  spices things up, you know, whatever.  Um.  So that's true. And, and I'm not gonna deny that that's true.

And you know, if, if there's a couple out there that is saying that it's helping them, then you know, go for it, like power to you kind of thing. Um,  I think it's far outweighed by the number of cases  of, of, individuals who

it's harming and relationships who it's harming. So, for example, there've been a lot of studies that showing that when, um, people in relationships watch more porn, they become less  satisfied with their partner, they become less sexually interested in their partner.

This is particularly true for men, that men the more porn men watch. When they're in relationship, the less interested they are in being with their partner and the more interested they are in solo masturbation to porn.  So it can cause harm in that way. It also usually involves a lot of lying and hiding behavior, uh, which can cause a rift and cause communication issues.  Also, kind of self-consciousness in partners. You know, if you know that your partner is going away to be looking at porn of, of other women,  and then you, and maybe your sex life is struggling, you know, that can be. So it's a case by case basis. It's an individual thing. The only time I've really ever heard about it being beneficial is

when couples watch it together,  

Mm. 

that if there's any kind of solo use of it.  You know, I, I haven't really heard many cases of it being  actually beneficial. And so check in for yourself if you're listening to this, you know, is it something that you do on your own? Is it something you do as a couple? Um.  But yeah, if you're doing it alone, particularly if you're hiding it, uh, or lying about it, um, or getting  involved or, you know, looking at material that is outside of kind of your ethical boundaries, like if it's stuff that you, you, you're not, not in alignment with in terms of what you're looking at, that can also be really harmful.  Um,  in terms of the question of whether addiction is the right term, I kind of touched on this earlier, like I don't really care what term you use, if you wanna say addiction or problematic behavior. Um,  I, I do find it funny that there are people out there, 'cause there are people out there, you know, sex positive people, uh, who say  this is, you know, people talking about porn addiction is all just a sham from conservative religious people that want to shut down our sexual liberation.

And that's just nonsense. Like if you work with the people that I work with, and if you see the cases out there.  It's, it's a no-brainer that this is a substance that you can get addicted to. People will spend hours and hours a day  watching porn and wasting their life away and getting into legal trouble, financial trouble.  It, it can just cause so much harm. And one thing I'll just say on that, porn is a substance. It is a substance that you consume through your eyes,  you know, other substances you consume through your mouth.  You know, it's just a different way of ingesting a substance, but you consume it through your eyes and it works on the exact same neurological  pathways and dopamine systems, you know, that any other substance is based on. And so people who say you can't get addicted to it because it's not a substance, it's just like,  it just doesn't make any sense. Gambling can be an addiction. Shopping can be an addiction. There are things that can, eating disorders can be an addiction. It's like these are all things that

can,  

we can get addicted to. 

Yeah, a hundred percent. It's almost like the dose really is in  . Like the poison is in the dose. And I 

And how it makes you feel. 

Exactly. I think too much of anything, um,  can be technically an, an addiction. I mean, exercise, you even co briefly mentioned that because I personally have struggled 

with exercise addiction, um, food addiction as well, eating disorders. 

Yeah. So  I really 

appreciate that, 

Going back to that point on, on exercise addiction, it's like, again, what we mentioned earlier, it's like with any behavior or substance, whatever it is, you have to just look on the holistic, like on the whole, is this causing more harm than it's doing good? And for exercise addiction, some people will say, no, no, no, but exercise is good. I can't be addicted to this. It's like, well, no, if it's causing, you know, long-term health consequences, if it's harming your relationships, if it's.  Eating away at

your soul, then Yeah,

it's it can be an addiction. as well.  

Yeah, it's definitely an addiction. I mean,  uh, gosh, some negative bene like, not benefits, some like negative aspects of over exercise, like  constant injury,  osteopenia, osteoporosis, inflammation of the heart, like cardiac issues. It's just, yeah, I mean, as you said, like in the acute traumatic instance of exercise, like if you had to take a, a blood sort of analysis after a, you know, an exercise session, you would look like you were not, well, like your heart rate would be elevated inflammation.

CRP, like, it's not a pretty picture, but that acute instance,  you know,  bounced back and balanced out with adequate recovery,  you know, is amazing for us. But it's the constant addictive overuse of it that will then accumulate over time and be more harmful than good. Um.  So I really appreciate that and specifically just appreciate just because for example, like just because porn is not a substance or exercise is not a substance, doesn't mean it can't be addicting and addictive. 

Anything else you wanted to comment on relating to that question? 

No, I think, I mean, I think that's it. Just, you know, to really tune in for anyone listening to this. Um, you know, just to see like, okay, how is this impacting my life? And, and really looking at the  psychological and emotional aspects of it as well. You know, how is this impacting my mental wellbeing? I mean, also a lot of my clients come to me and a lot of people who struggle with porn addiction, even if it weren't for all the ways that it's impacting their intimacy, their relationships, just the time that it's taking away from their life.

You know, the, a lot of people are just saying, this is just like empty calories. Like, I'm not getting any real benefit out of this, and it's wasting hours of my life every day.  And draining my energy that I could be putting into my business, my career,  my relationships, a new hobby. Um, so just to look into that and kind of check in for yourself and saying, okay, is this, is this

causing more harm than it's doing good?  

I think 

you don't,  just one other thing. Like you don't have to think that porn is evil  to decide to give it up. Like, you can think that there's nothing inherently wrong with porn, which I'm in that camp. Like I don't think there's, I don't have anything against porn in principle, like the philosophy of it, of  watching other people have sex on a screen.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't think it's sinful,  but the consequences of, of that as a behavior, if you can't moderate it, you know it, then it's something that's like, okay, well I don't want this in my life 'cause it's 

bringing my life down.  

Yeah, I know for sure. And I think  what can really be hopeful for a lot of people, and I think both you and I can speak to this, is just self-awareness and constantly committing and checking in with yourself and taking con like conscience and yeah, reflecting, doing a lot of deep introspective work, which never ends.

It never ends because we are always evolving.  Um.  So, yeah, I think just for both of us, I think we would both espouse to just build up as much self-awareness and self-consciousness as possible.  Which leads me to the role that meditation and mindfulness have had in your recovery in general. 

Yeah. 

Do you want me to just kind of like, uh, 

just, uh, riff on that? 

Yeah. Well, I mean, would you say that,  um, 'cause I'm, I'm always fascinated by like someone's, and I know that like, in recovery  there can be many, like, defining moments and like turning points in one's recovery journey to like shift and pivot their trajectories. Um, like for example, I have multiple different, like, turning points that all were significant,  you know, in hindsight,  uh, experiences that 

Put me on the trajectory of like sustainable, true recovery. So maybe the first question is like, did you have one sort of significant, profound defining moment that like woke you up to like, oh shit, like I need to change, something needs to change, I have a problem type of thing. Or was it multiple and I'm assuming that meditation and mindfulness was one of these things,  or 

So the,  well it, it.  You know, the before when you're in addiction, you know, it's like the rock bottom.  You usually,  you experience the rock bottom before you experience the path out of rock bottom, right? So, you know, the, the defining moments for me were more the rock bottom moments. The moments where I kind of woke up and said, oh, you know, this is a problem. I have to make a change. And then later I kind of  discovered meditation and said, oh, this is my ladder out of this hole. This is the pathway  to getting out of this mess.  In terms of the, the, moments that were really transformative, the wake up calls, there's one that was just the most profound and it's something that has stuck with me, you know, for now 15 years or so, however long it's been. Um.  There was a moment, you know, I, I went to school at uc, Davis, university of California Davis,  and I had already finished undergrad, but I was sticking around for a year, uh, doing research in, in a lab.  And I remember it was a, a beautiful day, you know, blue skies, like sun was out, the weather was good, my life was going great.

I had friends and  academic success and all this good stuff was going on. And I remember walking down the street and I remember in front of me there were these two, you know, college girls walking ahead of me in the same direction.  And I remember just being so  consumed by lust, you know, I was just, I could not stop staring at the asses of the girls in front of me. I was just like,  Consumed with this feeling of, I need to look, I need to touch, I need to have that.  And it was like this black hole and like opened up inside of me where I just felt empty. And I felt like the only thing that would bring me happiness was to,  you know, touch and feel and grope and, you know, all the things that I wanted to do, just that lust feeling.  And it was that moment that a few things happened to me.  One was the realization that that experience itself of lust, and I mentioned this earlier, but that that experience of lust was a state of suffering. That it was an unpleasant state to be in. And it didn't matter how good my life was, like I had so much to be grateful for. But when I was experiencing that lust, none of it mattered. You know, there I was no appreciation for my friends. There was no gratitude for being alive. It was just,  I need to have that thing and if I can't have that thing, I won't be happy.  So that was the first, was realizing, hey, this, this state of lust is a state of suffering where I'm not happy.  The second thing that happened to me was realizing, you know, I had this moment of kind of looking into my future  and realizing if I don't make a change, you know, I saw where I was headed. I was like, I'm gonna end up as some 70-year-old man who's hitting on girls at college bars, you know? And I was like, I don't want to be that guy  that is just, you know, kind of a pervert for the rest of his life.

And always looking for sex and never happy and just kind of creepy, right? And I saw that future for myself. I said, if I don't make a change, that's where I'm headed.  And so that was another wake up call where I said, I have to do something different.  The other thing, kind of the third insight that I had was realizing that  it, it was kind of this deep insight into  the nature of happiness where I just, I had this moment where I was like, everything in my life is so wonderful.  I have so many friends. My health is good.  I have lots of romantic partners. It, it wasn't like I wasn't having sex, I was having tons of sex, and I was like, all of this stuff in my life is going great. Anything I put my mind to, I could achieve. I was, I was one of the top students at the whole university, like graduated with all these highest honors, you know, ended up getting a full ride scholarship to Duke University.

So I was a very smart, talented,  athletic. I was captain of a sports team. All these things in my life were going great.  And I was like, how is it that I have everything I want  and yet I'm still not happy?  And it was that realization. It's like, I could keep my whole life, I could keep getting all these things I want.  And none of it would really bring me happiness.  And that was so important because that gave me the realization that there must be something else that I'm missing.  know, it's, it can't just be that I have to keep achieving, you know, my goals and getting more pleasure and more validation. There's gotta be something else that I'm missing.  And that moment, you know, I had this kind of freak out of a day where I was really depressed that that whole day it felt like an existential crisis. Like what is going on in my life?  And I remember, you know, fortunately I was, you know, a little bit of,  I was, I was kind of a nerd, but I was also very athletic and doing Brazilian juujitsu, so I was like a, a jock slash nerd. But my like, go-to was like, okay, I'm gonna go to the bookstore. And I went to the bookstore and I was just looking at books on like happiness. Like what is happiness?  Can anyone be happy?  And I remember I started to find these books on, you know, the, the movement that we now know as positive psychology, where it was really looking at, okay, like what is it that makes human beings flourish in life?  And through that exploration, I ended up getting, you know, this book, happiness by Mitsu Ricard. And that book just completely turned my life around. It showed me that so much of my life, I had been cultivating the very things that were causing me suffering. I had been cultivating lust and craving and anger and jealousy.  And if I wanted to be happy,  I just had to start cultivating the things that were gonna bring me happiness and fulfillment, like gratitude, compassion, contentment, connection.  So that was kind of the start of, you know, the, that was my, my rock bottom. And then 

the, the turning point 

for me.

Gosh, it's amazing and it was amazing that you had  so much insights and so much like wisdom come from that. And I think also at such a young age for you to be able to  come to terms with all of these things is also . Greatly admirable. I think, you know, a lot of people  do struggle and just continue to struggle and don't necessarily,  I suppose,  hit the rock bottom as, as early as you did.

I often, I've like reframed my whole journey as like, I've gone through my midlife crisis. Like I've gotten that done out of the way in my twenties.  Um, of course I'm not gonna say that. I may have another one,  , but, um,  yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And it's definitely, I think I'm gonna put the book  in the show notes for anyone who would like to read it.

I would like to read it. It sounds  

Hmm.

incredible and it really did 

have an amazing impact on you.  Um,  before we sort of like shift gears from porn addiction, I,  I just wanted to again double click on  . Shame because not only, and I think especially in porn addiction, because as we've said, porn and sex are often taboo topics, and there's a lot of shame regarding that.

So  I would love to hear how you have dealt with shame in your own experience. And I know anything like there's shame  in eating disorders, there's shame, there's a lot of shame in addiction in and of itself. So  I'd love to hear your take on shame and if you have any tips for people, because oftentimes that shame is the thing that's hindering us from actually getting better  and asking for help, 

Yeah, I mean, you said it there, it's shame is one of the things that keeps us stuck in addiction and. And keeps us from getting help. Uh, and it's also a great source

of misery and pain. Um,  you know, shame. 

addictive,  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, it, it's a vicious cycle.  And shame is that voice that kind of whispers in your ear and says, you're broken, you're a monster. You know, if people knew the truth about you, they would shun you and exclude you from the tribe. And it's this feeling of being uniquely broken.  And, you know, I was talking about this with, with someone else on my podcast recently. We often don't see shame for what it is. We don't recognize it's there. We just believe the story.

It's this experiential feeling of  I'm broken, I can't be seen  as I am. Because if I'm seen, you know, people will know and people will shun me. And so we, we hide and we run away. And usually when we hide and run away, we act out. And we act out in, in our addictions, which again brings on more shame.  And so we need to hide more.

So it's a, this downward spiral.  Um, sexual shame also is just very strong. It's one of these unique,  you know, ones that's just it for some reason. It is a very strong source of shame or sexuality. You know, it's,  it's just, it's so strange why it's so unique, but there's something about it that feels even more shameful. And,  you know, I've said this before in other podcast, I'm not a religious person as you know, I've kind of mentioned, but I do find it very  interesting that, you know, in the Bible on page two, you know, when Adam and Eve, when they took the bite of the apple, it's like the very first thing that they did was they covered up their genitals, right?

It's like.  One of the first things that happens is like, oh, we're ashamed of this. Let's cover this up.  And so it's just, there's something  kind of universal about this that, that we feel shame about our sexuality and  kind of, you know, this, this makes sense once you see that. But one of the most important things for healing from addiction is letting go of shame  and learning how to  be vulnerable and embrace your humanness and embrace all the aspects of who you are and say, no, I'm not broken. There's nothing wrong with me. Like I can be seen and I won't be called a monster.  And that is so healing and liberating. Uh, there's this quote I love, I think it's Ann Voskamp who said, shamed eyes when

stories are told in safe places.  

Mm. 

And it's like, if you can tell your story and  let people in in a safe place,  that's how you let go of shame. Is to recognize you're not alone.  Recognize you're not a monster. Recognize other people  kind of deal with these things as well.  Um, with, with porn, it took me so long to be able to open up about it, you know, even,  even after breaking free, even after doing all the work I did, you know, to master my mind and really get into meditation and actually stop the habit. I was still very ashamed of porn.  And it took me another six years before I could even start to open up about it. I just didn't want to talk about it. I didn't want people to know.  Uh, and that in some sense was kind of keeping me a little bit locked in that addiction. And so, you know, what I tell people is like, really learn how to embrace your sexuality  and, and cultivate this self-love and self-worth and

let go of shame.  

How, how do you embrace your sexuality? Because that's a very hard thing to do in today's world, especially when we're also just like in general, just like so disconnected from our bodies, 

Yeah. Yeah. It's a very hard thing to do. Um,  I think particularly,  I don't wanna say particularly for men, I think uniquely for men, I think there, I imagine there are ways that it's very difficult for women to embrace their sexuality as well. But I think for men, there's a lot of baggage around,  I think especially for, for men who are on the more kind of, uh.  Mindful side, the more liberal side who want to be good allies of women and, and not kind of feed into  centuries or millennia of kind of gender violence and these things, you know, embracing your sexuality can feel dangerous. Like, no, no, no, I can't be a sexual person because, you know, there's been so much sexual assault for women.

It's like, how can I be a sexual creature? Like any form of  sexuality is, will be intimidating for women, will be, you know, scary. And it can be very hard for a lot of men to really embrace their sexual side and embrace their desires and embrace their,  their sexual interests.  I think this is a side topic, but it's very important to understand the difference between desire and craving.  You know, sexual desire is a beautiful thing.  I think a lot of people kind of get hung up on. They get too far to the other extreme and they say, okay, I have to get rid of porn. I have to get rid of craving, I have to get rid of this addiction. I can't have any sexual desires. Any kind of sexual thing is wrong. But that's too far in the other extreme  that, you know, hey, sexual  is beautiful, sexual interaction, intimacy. So how I kind of embrace it is, is really just opening up to that and finding safe people to explore that with, to explore my intimacy. People who I know I can trust and, you know, they'll hold my,  my desire in a safe way. Um, there's a lot of ways to, to explore that. This gets more into kind of conscious connection, conscious intimacy. Um, but yeah, it's, it's,

a whole topic onto itself.  

Mm mm  Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. Um,  I'm trying to think if there's anything else I wanted to ask on the shame  front. Um,  but  one thing that I know that I know you wanted to speak about is the Rat Park Rat. The rat park experiments. And I didn't Google that before 'cause I wanted to hear it from you, but I'm very intrigued as to what that is and how it can help us all in our journeys of recovery. 

yeah. The, the Rat Park experiment is just a fascinating kind of finding from science that came out a few decades ago, but it very, it highlights something that's really important to understand in the addiction world. So back in the, I think it was the 1970s maybe they were studying the effects of addiction and they were studying, uh, particularly the effects of morphine on rats. And so in some of these  initial studies, they ended up giving rats, morphine, uh, in water, so water laced with morphine. And they found that the rats would become so addicted to this morphine water that they would sit there and drink the water  and they would not do anything else. They wouldn't eat, they wouldn't play, they wouldn't do anything.

They would just sit there and drink the water until they essentially died. So it was such an addictive thing, and it was really at this time where people were exploring addiction and it was highlighting how dangerous addiction can be.  And so that was the first study. But this one researcher had this really interesting observation.

You know, he looked at it and he said, well, these rats are in these really horrible conditions. They're in these cages, these metal cages. There's not a lot of fun. It's not really a natural environment for them. What would happen if we put them in a more natural environment? You know, they, if we gave them a running wheel and other rats to play with and sleep with, and  you know, what if we actually like gave them a nice place to live?  So they did that first, they forced, they forced them to become addicted to the morphine water. So they kind of like forced them to get addicted to it. And then they put them in this rat park where there was running wheels and they could run around and there was grass that they could play with and rats they could sleep with. And what they found is that the, the rats

barely touched the morphine water  that they didn't, you know, go back to this behavior because they were fulfilled in their life. They were living a happy life.  And what this shows is so important, it shows that addiction is not about the substance or behavior, it's about what's going on in your life.  And if you are not living a happy life, if you, you know, if you're living in a miserable,  miserable conditions, if you're not taking care of yourself,  then of course you're going to want to escape. And that's when addiction can really sink its hooks into you.  And so why I bring this up is how important it is to take care of your life as a whole if you want to recover. It's not just about  using willpower to stop the habit. It's about, Hey, can I make sure my relationships are good? Can I make sure that I'm getting exercise?  Can I make sure that I'm eating well, that I'm getting sunlight, you know, that I'm actually happy and feeling,  you know, aligned with my purpose and my values.  And then addiction can't sink its claws

into you.  

I love that so much. That's so beautiful. And gosh, it really deeply resonates with me. And what I've also come to understand about recovery, um, I speak about this all the time, like the body has an innate ability to heal itself when put in the right environment to do so. And the things that we can control are all of these things like,  uh, you know, sleep, nutrition, movement, community, relationships. 

Are we living on purpose with our purpose? That's a really, really big one. Um, gosh, that is such a beautiful,  thank you for sharing that. I hope that people have internalized that in at least one little  aspect. Um, 'cause it's so true. It's so true. These  . , like essentially the addiction and the addictive behavior are symptoms.

They're just like external manifestations and this  like,  this sort of dispelled like energy. And if we can sort of channel that energy to something that is more authentic to us and in line with our passion and purpose, then  the grips of that addiction doesn't necessarily have as much  volume to pull us back.

Um,  so  yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I really do appreciate that. Um, before I ask you one of your last questions, I just wanted to ask you if there's anything else that you would like to share  with us  wise. 

I guess, you know, just the prevalence of this kind of habit or condition or addiction, whatever you want to call it.  Again, it's so prevalent and because it's a sensitive topic, not a lot of people talk about it. And so just to know, you know, that if you're struggling with this, you're not alone. Um,  and, and there's support out there for you and change is possible.

You know, I think that's another big thing. It's just recognizing  it's not hopeless. You know, like even if you've been addicted to this for years, even if you're getting into really kind of bad stuff, you know, you can change your life and you can break free. And this is in large part due to neuroplasticity, which I kind of talked about before.

Neurons that fire together, wire together.  We understand now that your brain can change and your brain can rewire itself. Um, so I, you know, that's kind of a whole nother topic. And  yeah,

that's, I think just important for people to know.  

No, it's very 

important because for a very long time, even in the medic, in the medical literature, neuroplasticity was . Thought like impossible. Like it, people thought it was impossible that you could change the wiring of your brain. Um, so I think that's a very important and empowering thing for people to understand is that we can, with constant, well with consistency, we can make change in our lives.

We, we, we truly can, like no one is ever beyond hope and no one is ever beyond help. Um,  so I really do appreciate you bringing like that as well because  I mean,  yeah, the basic prayer is, is that no one was born to suffer in this world. So like  I know that there's a lot of shame and I know that shame is really, really harsh and, and very, very  gosh.

It's when you're stuck in, when you're like so shameful. It's, it's like mortifying   to like even ask for help. I really, I really, and it took me years as well to open up to someone about my struggles with the eating disorder. So.   and I've done some really shameful things that I'm not proud of, but  like, I think we can all recall when we were kids and we read all these like story books. 

You know, the biggest lesson that was often spoken about in whatever stories we were reading was just like, how  the end of the day,  honesty trumps  most things. And even if you being, even if like, yeah, we often do things that are not, that are shameful, but there's nothing  more relieving than at least letting that out to someone, you know, it obviously doesn't have to be the entire world.

Um,  but  yeah, I think, 

yeah.

That's where that, you know why I love that quote is like shamed

eyes when stories are told in safe spaces, and it's 

hundred percent. 

The

safe space part of it is actually critical. You know, shame doesn't die if you tell it in a non-safe space, you know? And so to recognize it's like, Hey, okay, where can I find a safe person to talk to someone who's not gonna

judge me And is gonna kind of hold space for this? 

Mm mm And that's, you know, where I would say to people, if you don't have a safe person, you know, there are coaches like Jeremy, like myself and therapists, counselors, like there are so many  options and resources out there. Um, and I truly believe that you will be able to find, you know, one safe person. For sure. 

Um, so before I ask you your last question, where can people find you and follow your work? And I know that you also have a,  a sort of like a 30 day reboot course for addiction. Is it only for porn addiction or could it be for any addiction? 

Yeah. It's really, you know, it looks at the fundamental kind of aspects. A lot of it is around, um, mindfulness training and, and mastering your mind and understanding habit change. And so, you know, it's really applicable to any addiction, whether it's social media addiction,  junk food, um,  internet  shopping, you know, it, it's quite applicable.

There's a few modules or video lectures that are specifically around, uh, shame or, or porn in specific. But, um, it's quite open  if people want to get in touch or learn more. You know, I'd say my own podcast is a great way, just start tuning into that. It's called Unhooked, uh, and you can get it on any of the major platforms. Uh, Instagram, I'm at Jeremy Lipkowitz. Yeah. And I also have a website, uh, jeremy lipkowitz.com, which if you're interested in, in coaching, you know, if you're interested in one-on-one coaching, then we can explore that in a, in a discovery call. Um, the unhooked program is going to be launching soon. It's a co cohort based program. Uh, so right now there's a wait list. If you're interested, you

could sign up for that on my website as well. 

Awesome. Thank you so much. And I'll link all of that in the show notes.  And for your last question,  what would you tell your younger self? 

Hmm.  Hmm.  Gosh, I don't know. I, you know, I get, it kind of depends on like how old, like, uh, you know, my 15-year-old self, my 10-year-old self,

um,  

uh. 

Take it however 

you 

I almo,  I almost wouldn't tell him anything. Like I kind of, I just, uh, I don't know if that's a kind of a cop out, but it's like, I think  he had to learn all these lessons  and,  and I really, I'm just, I'm proud of him, you know, like how he handled everything and the dark moments he went through and,  um,  yeah, I guess, I don't know, something like, like, you're safe.

You're, you're gonna be okay. But it's like, I don't know if he even would've been able to hear that, but just kind of like,  you're not alone. Um, you know, the same things I've kind of said to all the listeners here. It's like, Hey, you're not alone, you're not broken. Um,  but I, the, the reason I say that, like I wouldn't say anything is  it's one thing for me to say, Hey, you're not alone.  So many of us can hear that, and we don't really take it in, you know, it's like we have to have some experience of it, of like.  We've gotta do some deep, deep soul searching in the dark corners of our soul in order to really learn that lesson. And I think it's getting back to one of the things I love about Buddhism and all this, you know, Buddhist philosophy, a lot of it is about what we call experiential wisdom. Because there's knowledge, you know, there's like, yes, I, I know that,  uh, you know, junk food is bad for me,  but then it's like, we still do it anyway, but there's experiential wisdom where it's like your

body knows that it's true.  And I think that is something that's, you know, you kind of have to go through some, some dark times in order to really experience that.  Um,  so I guess I would just say I'm proud of you

to my younger self. That's all 

I'd say. 

I think your initial answer of like, I don't think you would say anything to yourself is not a cop out. I think it just shows that how much work you've done and how much gratitude you exude and truly experience in your life. Because  yeah, we.  No one comes out of life, comes out of life unscathed. We are all going to go through things and I think your  current,  well, your answer to the question just shows how much work you've done and how far you've come and  how you can triumph. 

'cause again, like all of these things that happened to us, we can either learn from them or  get hindered by them and like, yeah, it just speaks to all the work you've done and how you've triumphed over things and really empowered your own health journey. And I just wanna commend you for all of the amazing work that you're doing.

Thank you for speaking out about this and for being real, because we need more people like that in the world. We really, really do. I think,  you know, you're just a beacon of light for a lot of people. I do know that. And I hope that we've been able, well, that you've been able to.  Shed some hope into some of my listeners.

So thank you so much for coming on today, Jeremy. It was an absolute honor to have you and everything of the best for your 2024. 

Thank you.