72. Mandy Pitera - My Partner's Porn Addiction: Dealing With Betrayal Trauma & Understanding the Effects of Porn on Intimacy

In this episode, host Jeremy Lipkowitz converses with guest Mandy Pitera about her experience with a partner struggling with porn addiction. Mandy discusses the negative impacts porn addiction can have on relationships and individuals, and provides powerful insights into the partner's perspective of the situation. She shares her emotional journey of discovering, dealing with, and recovering from her partner's addiction, highlighting the importance of understanding, honesty, and vulnerability in relationships. Mandy also mentions the damage caused by the betrayal trauma, like PTSD, and advocates for more public discourse and education on the subject to prevent similar situations and provide better support for those affected.

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Mandy Pitera is a meditation teacher, Breathwork facilitator, and is currently training to become a Trauma-informed, Women’s Empowerment coach. She’s passionate about educating people about the negative impacts of porn on relationships and Partner Betrayal Trauma

Connect with Mandy: https://www.instagram.com/mandjpitera/

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ABOUT JEREMY LIPKOWTZ

JEREMY IS A MEDITATION TEACHER, LIFE COACH, AND DIGITAL HABITS EXPERT WHO WORKS WITH ENTREPRENEURS, EXECUTIVES, AND LEADERS.

Jeremy overcame addiction, shame, self-judgement, and depression in his early twenties with the help of mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness not only helped him let go of destructive behaviors, it also allowed him to connect with deeper meaning and purpose in his life.

For the past 10 years Jeremy has been teaching mindfulness and emotional intelligence practices at universities, recovery centers, and companies throughout Asia and the US. He holds a Bachelors and Master’s degree in Genetics and Genomics, and spent several years at Duke University working towards a PhD in Genetics & Systems Biology before he turned full-time to teaching mindfulness.

Jeremy is also an ICF certified Executive Coach. As a former scientist and academic, Jeremy has a great passion for bringing his EI based coaching skills into the corporate and professional world. He realizes how powerful & transformative these practices can be for skeptics and senior-level managers. He is known for his calm and grounded demeanor, his expertise in habits and high-performance, and his compassionate approach to transformation.

Transcript

 You're listening to Unhooked. My guest today is Mandy Pitera. Mandy is a meditation teacher, breathwork facilitator, and is currently training to become a trauma informed women's empowerment coach. She's passionate about educating people about the negative impacts of porn on relationships and partner betrayal trauma.

This episode is a powerful one. This is a topic that has been requested by many of the listeners to explore porn addiction from the partner's perspective. How does a partner experience the effects of porn on the relationship, on intimacy, and on their mental health and well being? In this episode, we explore Mandy's own experience of betrayal, the effects of porn on her relationship intimacy, and her feeling of safety.

We also talk about what men can do if they're struggling to be vulnerable and disclose their porn habit with their partner. There are so many golden nuggets and useful tips in this episode. Whether you're a man struggling with porn addiction, or a partner of someone who's struggling with addiction, this episode is for you.

 Without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Mandy Pitera. 

 All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Unhooked. I'm your host Jeremy Lipitz, and I'm joined today by Mandy. Mandy, welcome to the show.

 Hi.

So, 

Nice to be 

yeah, so I wanted to bring you on, you know, we connected, uh, last year in Bali and you know, I heard about your story with kind of betrayal trauma and having a partner who was struggling with porn addiction. Um, and I really wanted to bring you on to hear about the experience of porn addiction from  the partner's point of view. Uh, this is something that a lot of the listeners have asked to learn more about and people who are struggling with porn addiction themselves, and they want to know, you know, what is it like from their partner's, partner's point of view. Because they, they, maybe understand a little bit, but they don't understand completely what's going on for their partner. Uh, and you

have very courageously agreed to share your story and it's, you know, it's a very powerful story, um,  so that we could learn from your experience. And so, you know, first of all, I just wanna welcome you to the show and, and happy to have you on the podcast. 

Thank you. Yeah. Um, I'm happy to be here and help, help however I can. I know it's an interesting topic, but  yeah. You know, happy to be here.

 So just kind of diving straight into the deep end, I'm wondering if you could set the stage a little bit, um, you know, just looking back on your relationship with, you know, your partner, who is your ex now, um,  and for the listeners, you know, had you and your. Partner had any conversations about porn kind of before you found out?

Was it something that you guys talked about and were open about? 

Um, yeah, I mean, we had casual conversations about it. Like I, I knew he watched it in the beginning of the relationship, but I never thought porn could really be harmful or even addicting because it's not something that's talked about often in society. Um, it just felt like it was something that. It was so normalized in society.

So I never questioned its impact until I got further along into this relationship. Um, over time it did get to the point where porn was impacting us and it felt like he was choosing it over me. Um, it really did take a while for me though, to get that courage to speak up to him about it. I didn't  wanna come off as like an insecure or a controlling girlfriend.

Um, I remember I would like. Google it to see like, am I allowed to be mad about boyfriend watching porn? Like I just didn't know what to do. And the resources I'd come across would say like, oh, the girlfriend's insecure. Like she needs to work on herself. This is just what guys do. It's just a girl on the screen.

Like, what's the big deal? Um, so I did start to do, start to do a lot of work on myself, but  honestly, over time I was breaking inside. Um, and so I did start to bring up the conversations about it pretty often. Um, we lived together and both worked from home, so I really didn't understand like why porn was even necessary anymore when I was, I mean, I was physically there all the time for sex.

Um, I didn't have any problem with masturbating, and I think self pleasure is important, but it was more so just the porn and the OnlyFans. It just, it had to go. And so that's what we agreed on. So I was under the impression that porn was out of our relationship at some point.

Yeah, and I'm just curious, you know, when you guys had these early kind of casual conversations about it, what was your partner's stance? You know, what was his belief about Bour? 

Um,  it  was not welcomed with  Um, there was definitely a lot of resistance, a lot of the defensiveness. Um, it was kind of the standpoint well of like, well, this is just like what guys do. Like I am just a girl on the screen. Like, what's the big deal basically? Um, so we had to have a few conversations about it and  they would get pretty intense to the point where like, I was crying.

I think it took the point to him, got to the point where he had to really see me crying and like see how much pain it was causing me for him to finally just agree, like, okay, yeah, like it's not worth it. Um.  My whole standpoint on was like, why,  why do these girls need to be in our relationship? If it, if you say they don't mean anything to you, like, then just stop doing it.

If you say it means nothing, um, but yeah, I, I just didn't really understand how addiction worked back there, nor did I know it could even be a thing. Think.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, it's a very common thing that,  you know, there are some women that just don't understand that it can be addictive because, you know, they haven't been addicted to it themselves. But, you know, guys are, can be hardwired a little bit differently and can be a bit more of an addictive substance for men. Um, 

I'm curious, did you notice any signs or things that made you kind of wonder about whether it was impacting the relationship before you found out about the addiction? 

Yeah. Um.  Yes. Um, there was just a feeling that something was always  off in the relationship, um, but I could never really figure out what it was. Um, a year into our relationship, I started seeing, uh, intimacy therapist because  was just off with  our sex and just that emotional connection. Um, I also just, a girl from his ex reached out to me who raised some red flags, and  that's kind of when things, I started second guessing things. 

Um, after we broke up, I found out the therapist I'd been seeing actually specializes in porn and sex addiction. So yeah, I definitely had this weird gut feeling, but I think I just didn't know at the time. Um, I mean, he was always doing like these big grand gestures for me, like showing me how much he loved me, showing how other people, how much he loved me, always planning these like cute, adorable dates for us.

And it was just something I was willing to overlook because  why, why would you be doing something behind someone's back when you say you love them and you live together? And like, how would you even have time to do anything? Um, but the more emotionally deeper we became, the more I started to realize he struggled with anxiety and panic attacks.

Um, we were at one of my best friend's wedding and he had a bad panic attack, and after that.  Some other ones started to happen. So I really started to just like read his body language well, so I could notice in times like, so I knew what to do. Um, but unfortunately I started to notice that, oh, he gets really anxious before and after sex.

Like even though we had been dating for a while, like, why, why would someone get anxious when you've already slept with me? So that was just making me curious, like, is something going on here? Um, and another thing that made me wonder was just our sex in general. Um,  honestly, we rarely had it. Like it wasn't often.

And I've been in long-term relationships before where that wasn't necessarily an issue. Um.  What hurt the most was that he was rarely initiating sex with me. So usually I was the one to do it. Um, and I, because of that, I just never felt like I was like sexually desired by him or like lusted after, or like, he like craved this, like, intimacy with me.

Um, so I would bring that up often just saying I wanted to be more of like a 50 50 split. Um, and sometimes that would lead to fights and I just remember being so confused 'cause I was like,  man, if someone was telling me they wanted more sex for me, like I'm not going to start a fight over about it. Like, I'll just start having more sex.

So, I don't know, that was just interesting to me. But then I was like, okay, maybe, maybe he's just anxious with sex. Maybe that's where this anxiety comes from. Or maybe he just prefers porn over sex. So. 

I don't know. I, I just, I was having a lot of thoughts of it. Um, another thing that caught my tension was just our general style of sex.

Um, it didn't feel like this, um, like intimate emotional connection like I've had with previous partners. Um, it's,  I don't know, but again, maybe I was like, maybe he's just anxious. Maybe I'm the problem. Maybe this is all in my head. So that's why I started seeing the intimacy therapist.  Um, however,  after we moved in together, that's when the porn youth started to become more evident, and I just started to feel so 

unworthy and so undesirable.

Um,  after living together for a while, he started having difficulty staying hard during sex and had to start taking erectile dysfunction medication. Um, he said it was due, it's like, work stress. You're being tired. Which I was like, yeah, of course that makes sense. But then he would start to say like, oh, I watched porn earlier in the day.

And after that happened a few times, that's when I was just like,  what? Like you're choosing to watch porn when like you could just be, I've been home. Like you could just have sex with me, you know? Um,

and then recently after that, his OnlyFans account accidentally came up on his phone when he was showing me something, and that's when my self-confidence really started tanking.

Um, and that's when I started having those conversations with him about removing porn and OnlyFans. And  I was just getting so sad. Like, why,  why are you choosing to masturbate to other females when you can have sex with me? Like, I'm here. Like, I'm asking for it. Like,

what's wrong with me? Um. So, yeah, I started to spend like hundreds of my own money on sex toys, lingerie, like literally anything I could do to try to get his attention.

And because I thought this erectile dysfunction was my fault, he always said it wasn't. He was very kind with that. I was like, no, it has nothing to do with you. It's me. But still, like, as a female, I'm just like, well, maybe you're unattracted to me now. Like, what happened? Like, what am I doing wrong? So I was just trying to spice it up as much as possible.

But, 

um, yeah, I just wish I would've known about those studies, like done on porn and how it can impact erectile dys function, just to know that it's, yeah, I, you don't know what you know at the time. 

I want to go back to something you mentioned. You were talking about some of the, the signs that you were starting to notice in your relationship and some of the things that maybe at the, at the time you didn't really make the connection, but looking back you, you see that connection. I remember we were talking earlier, you were talking about kind of what the intimacy felt like and how kind of there was this lack of presence or lack of connection, and I think you kind of described it

almost like his eyes would be closed, kind of like off in space, like feeling almost like a zombie. Tell me a little bit about just how that felt. 

Yeah. Um,  yeah, I just remember when we'd be having sex, his eyes were closed a lot and it, I didn't understand it. Like previously when I've had sex and long-term relationships, we'd like make eye contact. It was a very, like, emotional thing, but his would just be closed. Or like, he,  like, he wouldn't be able to like finish if he was looking at me or when we the, like when his eyes were open, it was just like a, it  was just like a blank stare.

Like there's no like.  Emotion. Emotion. There was no like feeling. It was just like,  I don't know. It's, I, I've never seen that before. And it,  yeah, I don't know. It was so strange. I was like, then again, I was like, maybe I'm the issue. Like maybe, I don't know. It was, It's, you know, it's a, it's a common thing with, with people struggling with porn addiction, that essentially what's happening is that in order to try to stay hard or in order to try to finish, they essentially need to close their eyes and just kind of think of porn that they recently watched. Um, and so there is this disconnection, it's, it's a common experience for partners of porn addicts where they feel this disconnection, this feeling like the person's not even in the room with them.

They're somewhere else completely. 

And it's just 

like a 

physical, Yeah. Yeah. It can be really painful when the person's not present. Yeah. 

Yeah, that was a really good description. Like where it felt like someone was, he was outta the room, like not present. It just felt like, I was like, why aren't you like interested in my body? Like, am I boring you? Like, is this, it felt like it was like a chore, I guess, for him to do. I was like, yeah, it,  yeah. 

Uh, it sounds, you know it, from what I'm hearing, it sounds like you guys had had some conversations and you were clear that you wanted him to stop watching porn, but then over time there were kind of these instances where it was actually coming back into the relationship. Um, was that something that was surprising to you?

Was it, did did it feel like that was a betrayal of your trust already or was it,  what was that like? 

Yeah. Um,  it was interesting. So when I thought the porn was out of our relationship, then it would come back in. He.  I'm not like trying to like blame or anything, but he always had excuses for like, oh, well, like, I remember one time it was the nighttime we had a conversation about, it was like, okay, like let's just like, please, can the porn just stop?

He's like, yeah, I, I understand it's done. And then the next day it was a work day and I went to go walk the dog and I came back and I went into our bedroom and like the bed was set up as if he was just masturbating and there was like the towel that he used on the ground. And I was just like,

wait, what?

We just had a conversation about this yesterday. Like I, I felt like I was going crazy. I was like, did that conversation even happen? And then  when I brought it up to him, he was like, oh yeah, sorry. It's just really stress. And then like went about, I think he like went back to the kitchen to cook and I was like, whoa, whoa.

Like one, don't brush that off so easily. Like I. We just had this conversation and I, you just lied to me and you went against everything we just said, like in the snap of a finger. And it was the way that he would just brush it off so easily, like, oh yeah, that happened. It's not a big deal. Where then I was like,  okay, maybe it's not a big deal.

I feel like I started to like second guess myself and gaslight myself Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, gaslighting, it's a huge thing where the person's downplaying it and making you think like you're the, the crazy one for having an issue with it.  Yeah.

Mm-Hmm. 

Yeah. I felt like I was the crazy one.

Yeah. Yeah. Um,  I want to dive into kind of the moment where you,  you found out how serious of a problem it was. Um, how did you find out? 

Um.  Unfortunately, I had to find out myself and I really wish he just would've told me. Um, the red flag started to get a bit more red. My, my gut instinct was just getting stronger. Um, one week a red flag happened and I was literally so stressed that I had to go to the emergency room for an ovarian cystic rupture from the stress. 

And while we were in there, I saw him type in his phone passcode, and I noticed it was different from what it was at the beginning of our relationship. Um, so I memorized it while he was typing it in.  I didn't do anything with it until a few days later.  When we were in our apartment, I heard him pick up his phone in a flirty voice and then he left the apartment to go talk to this person.

Um, he never did that before in my body. Like it was just, the gut instinct was like immediate pain and cramps and I felt so nauseous. And I remember just like bending over like what just happened. And um, yeah, I just, I knew it was a girl, but I didn't wanna believe it. And then, um, he took me on dates later that day.

Everything was fun. He acted normal, but I just couldn't get that  feeling outta my body. Um,  so then that night when he went to bed, I went through his phone and I just saw everything. Um,  the girl I heard him call was actually a FaceTime with a porn star. He wanted to make sure she wasn't a catfish and.

They were both sending each other nudes and sexting while he was taking me out on that date all day. Um, he was talking about getting a hotel room with her and he said he,  uh, was an info manc. Um,  yeah, and he was name dropping another porn star. He said he's dated before and,  uh, sorry. Um, how they were going to send videos to his girlfriend of them having sex.

And he mentioned this other girl's name as his girlfriend a few times, and I had no idea who this girl was. Like I was clearly his girlfriend and he was saying a different name. Um,  so that raised a lot of red flags and yeah, it was  a porn addiction that turned him into an info manc. Um, and.  As the months passed, more and more girls just came forward with screenshots of their conversations tied to his phone number, like the timestamps on the conversations on and off throughout our entire relationship.

Um, they showed me his second girlfriend he was referring to that lived in a different state, like her phone number, social media, really just like all the proof that he was doing this for years before I found out and for years before he even met me. Um, and I know I just shared a lot, but I do just wanna make it clear that like, I'm not trying to paint him as this evil villain.

You know, he really was such a great, normal guy from the outside looking in. Um, he had so many good characteristics. He was charming, he was outgoing, he was funny, he was sincere. He had a good job. Like everyone in my life loved him. Um, we were that like. Picture perfect. Couple everyone thought was going to get engaged.

He was my absolute best friend. Um,  when we first met, I introduced him to his animal shelter and we picked up a rescue dog together, and he trained the dog to know me as mom. And we were like an inseparable family. Um, the relationship just felt so normal and like I or anyone in my life, or anyone who knew him, I don't think in a million years would've ever thought he was cheating on me in real life or even have a porn addiction.

Um, but I do think it's important to say this just to show like how this addiction can progress and how easy it is to hide it. Because I mean, as you know, you can do it in private. It's so easy to access it on your phone and there's none of those like visible hangover effects to others as if you were on a drug or alcohol bender.

Um, and also just how easily it can start to control you. I.  I know he didn't wanna be doing those things to me. I know he didn't just wake up one day and decide to randomly do all this. Um, it's obviously can be such a slow progression over the years. And, you know, that's like what all the scientific research is showing.

Like he has, you need more dopamine to get aroused, which requires like more intense material. And for some people, like my ex, seeing it on the screen may not be enough anymore. And you need new and different sex partners in real life to experience that novelty of being with different women like you do in porn.

Um, sorry, I digress. But yeah, going back to that first moment of just going through his phone and seeing this like other side of him that I didn't know existed, there's really just nothing that can prepare you for  that level of pain and shock. It's, 

Yeah,

just like a complete,

unpredictable.

betrayal. Kind of  like you didn't even know who this person was sitting next to you in the bed. 

Completely. Yeah.

Yeah.  I'm curious, you know, in that moment, what were some of the emotions that were coming up for you? I. 

Uh, in that moment, um, I was just overwhelmed with confusion and shock. I,  um,  I think you made a really good point of how it just feels like it was a stranger next to me. Um, I didn't  recognize who he was in that moment. Um, I confronted him about it and he lied. Not knowing that I had just seen everything on his phone, but just seeing that. 

The lies that was just like a level of anger and disrespect and betrayal that I didn't know was humanly possible. Like that exact moment was so traumatizing and like I, I remember it so vividly like it was yesterday and I still have PTSD flashbacks to it. But yeah, I just, I didn't recognize who he was.

I remember looking at him just like fearing for my life because I didn't know who the stranger was that I was sharing an apartment with. I had no idea what he was capable of because I never thought he was capable of doing what he was doing. Like, no, he wasn't doing anything to physically harm me by any means.

But I just, like, I remember my body just tightened up. I was like, I don't know who this man is. I,  he was my prince charming. And in the matter of I. Seconds. My fairy tale relationship just turned into a fucking nightmare. Sorry for swearing, but I was freaking out. I was screaming, telling him to leave. I was hyperventilating and having  the worst panic attack of my life.

Um,  yeah. The pain was so intense. I almost took my life that night. Um, I, that was my plan. I didn't,  I didn't wanna wake up tomorrow with that pain. I,

Mm.

yeah. Um,

Yeah. 

yeah. There's just no words to describe how intense, shocking, and confusing the betrayal is. The,  all the emotions are brought up for after were just so  intense and unpredictable.

Yeah.  I mean, it's a  quite a potent cocktail of, of harm, emotional harm. It's not just, not just the cheating, but you know, the,  all the lying and the gaslighting in the sense that you just don't even know who this person is. Um, I can imagine is  beyond words. 

Yeah. Yeah. Completely. 

You have talked in the past about kind of the PTSD aspect of it, you know, and just what happened in the, the weeks and months following that, and I'm wondering if you could

tell the listeners just a little bit about, you know, what was it you experienced following that? 

Yeah. Um, so experts now say that betrayal trauma can be the same trauma to your body as if you were on a live battlefield or in a violent accident, which result in PTSD. Like, it's just such a sudden unexpected shock and pain and your brain just can't process it in real time. Um,  the next weeks and months, my body was in such a traumatic state. I had multiple panic attacks every day. I woke up every morning with just, I would be awake for five seconds. Then within five seconds, it turned into a panic attack.

Uh, I was vomiting and had diarrhea every day. My body trembled on and off all day, just like I was shaking. Um, I couldn't eat from nausea and lost 12 pounds in a month. Um.  I woke up screaming with night terrors every night just of flashbacks to everything I saw on his phone. Um, anytime I saw a girl in lingerie or revealing clothes on social media or tv, I would have PSD flashbacks to what I saw on his phone.

Um, anytime I heard the words porn or sex or drove by a hotel, which unfortunately is fucking a lot, my body would just like tighten up. My breathing would get really intense and I'd have to pull over, stop whatever I was doing to like calm myself down to not hyperventilate. Um,  I just felt nauseous and afraid anytime I was around a man because they felt so  untrustworthy to me.

Um,  I think something that is important to know that might help  men realize why this is such like a betrayal to the FEMA body is.  As females we're conditioned by society at a very young age that our physical appearance is our most important aspect. It's what makes us desirable, lovable, like worthy of a man, worthy of their loyalty and devotion.

It's obviously not true, but it's something we're just conditioned to believe at such a young age, and most of us struggle with that. I mean, like eating disorders are huge among females because society tells us we need to look a certain way. So we spend so much time and money on keeping up our appearance and like, and if you just look at the makeup industry, it's fucking huge.

Or like the amount of makeup that girls own. Um, so then you find out your partner is addicted to other women's bodies. It's, it's nearly impossible to not take that as a personal attack on you not being like, good enough for them. Like that's, and that's why they need to seek these other women. Like it's.

Ultimate rejection. Like,

I just remember thinking like, why am I not enough for you? Why is my body not enough for you? Like, why are you craving other women's bodies instead of my own? Like a person you say you love? Like why do you even want to see theirs on the screen when you can experience mine in real life?

Like, I had no desire to see other man's bodies while I was with him. So why does he not feel the same about me? What's wrong with me? Like, something must be wrong with me. That's the only way I could rationalize it. Um,  but yeah, sorry. Going back to some of the PTSD and like the aftermath, I, the way I dressed completely changed.

I wore baggy clothes to cover my body. I showered and went to the bathroom with my eyes closed just because I felt so ashamed and embarrassed looking at my body. I avoided looking at the mirror because I just felt so. Ugly and thought this was all my fault because of how I look. Um,  my self-esteem was completely shattered.

Like it was,

Yeah. 

it didn't exist. Um, and I just felt embarrassed and ashamed because I thought everyone would think like I did something to cause this, that it was my fault that I wasn't a good enough girlfriend, or that I wasn't good enough in bad. I just felt so  disgusted by myself. I just hated my body. I hated myself.

I would pick it apart. I remember the first few times I did look in a mirror and I just picked everything apart. I was like, oh, like  your thighs are too big. Like you don't have enough curve. Your stomach's isn't flat, whatever it may be. And I just would focus on all its imperfections, which  And my mindset was just like, wow, I must be so ugly and gross that.

My boyfriend would rather watch porn with a girl on the screen than have sex with me in real life. Like he'd rather get a hotel room to sleep with a porn star than sleep with me in our bed that we bought together. Like, I kept thinking like, why her and not me? Like, why all those random girls and not me?

Like, why am I not enough? What's wrong with me? Like I, God, I remember stalking their Instagram accounts like every day and just like comparing themselves to me, and I just couldn't,  I couldn't understand what I was missing or like what I had to do differently. It just,

it just,  yeah, it just took over my brain.

Yeah.  Uh, first of all, I just wanna, again, thank you for, for sharing your story because I, I know it's  a painful part of your life. Uh. And you're really letting people in on, on that. And I think it's gonna do a lot of good, you know, for particularly for men to hear this because I think for a lot of men, they don't understand  what it's like from the other side, you know, like what's going on from their partner's perspective. Um,  I'm curious,  you know, to,  to take a step back and now kind of look more  at what you've learned since this happened and just kind of your views. Um,  I'm curious, how do you think porn affects relationships in general? What's your views on that? 

Um, I might have a biased view, but I think porn destroys relationships and it's not sustainable long term. I think porn only found live webcams, sex chats, whatever it may be. I think it just opens the door for cheating and desensitizes that even though you aren't having an emotional connection with this girl, you're still having a physical connection with her and choosing to get off to her instead of choosing your fe your partner to be that person for you.

Um, I think one of the most interesting studies I came across was that.  I think it's like when relationships with porn are more likely to end a divorce or have a higher chance of infidelity, even if you're happy and satisfied in your marriage or relationships. Like even despite all the troubles that go on in a marriage, like even if you're happy in that it's still likely to end in divorce 'cause of porn and  yeah.

Um, within a few months after this happened to me, I feel like I just walked into this world where I just met  so many females that it was also happening to, um,  right after it happened to me, a close friend found out her husband was addicted to porn and now they're getting divorced with children because he was kept lying about it and hiding it and then. 

Another month later, another friend called off her engagement because she caught her fiance seeking out sex in real life and was on all the dating apps without her knowing. And then two months later, another friend ended her marriage after discovering the same thing. And I'm in these support groups with for betrayed partners with thousands of women.

And most of these women find out after they've been married for a while, and they're significantly older than me. And I would say from those, from my experience, most of the relationships didn't just stop at porn. They either turned into a sex addiction or they turned into infidelity.  And that's what I think is just so worrisome about long-term porn use.

But I mean, society just acts like it's the normal thing for people do to do. But I mean, like. Maybe have it under control now, but what happens in the coming years and decades when you need more dopamine or more intense view stuff? Or what if you need to start to seek out in real life? And that's not even including like all the stressors of marriage and having kids and finances everything and Yeah.

Um, but no, like, I don't think every person addicted to porn. Well, this will, or every person who watches porn is addicted to porn or that their life will turn into this. But  there's more and more research showing that yeah, this can affect your mental health and your sexual health and relationships. And,  um, I know I've read some studies where it talks about porn results in people objectifying women.

And that's exactly how I feel when I look back at my relationship. Um.  I felt like I was just an object to him and my feelings weren't being considered. I felt like I was just there for his emotional support and the companionship. But then he was using porn and other females for his sexual pleasure, even though I was asking for more and letting him know how it was negatively impacting me.

Um, and I remember considering like, okay, well maybe I should just start watching porn with him. 'cause I've heard of relationships doing that. But then I remember coming across studies that show that can actually  impact the relationship more negatively long term. And I always went back to the like, well, I don't want another naked girl in this relationship anyway, so why would I go and then support this by watching it with him?

And  yeah, I don't know. I,  I don't see how porn can help relationships by any means. That's my standpoint on 

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you brought up a lot of the,  the harms, you know, not just the harms for yourself in terms of how it impacts your, your mental health, your wellbeing, but also really how it impacts your relationships and how you're objectifying the people in your life. And,  um, the hiding and the lying.

I think that's one of the big things.

You know, just the, the lying behavior, the double life, the secretive behavior, the gaslighting, it's a huge. Cause of, uh, negativity in relationships. 

Yeah. And something to that point too, which I thought was interesting with like the line, the gas lighting and the manipulation like it was.  It was really hard for me to even notice that while I was in the relationship. And it actually took me like a few months after the fact when I was going through some really intensive therapy for this therapist to start to point things out to me where it's like, no, that was gaslighting.

That was manipulation. But when you're in this relationship, I think I just didn't even know to like look for or be aware of it. And then, yeah, it's just scary looking back to like  see this hidden, this double life and just to know how long it's going on for. 

Yeah,

yeah,  

yeah, trust issues now

yeah. Well, on that note, you know, one question that I would love to ask you is, is there anything that you wish your partner had done differently?  You know, 'cause what I really love is that the recognition that you have that you know, it's like, Hey, your, your ex  isn't like a monster. That's just a horrible, evil person.

It's someone who's suffering

with, with, you know, a condition, a disease of the mind. And so I'm just curious, you know, what do you wish he had done differently? 

Yeah, that's a great question. Um,  I wish he just would've told me, I wish he just would have been vulnerable and approached me from a place of  like, Hey, this is what I'm going through. I wanna change it. I, there's pain, there's shame, there's guilt, there's embarrassment. Just like be completely transparent and just give me all the information up front so I can understand it from his viewpoints.

Um, I think,  I think there's a night and day difference of me catching him in the act and then him either lying or contrasting compared to if he were to just come approach me on his own terms without me having to bring this up and him just let me know what was going on and.  I think  what would've been so helpful was to just  when, if he would've done that, to just let me know that it happened before he met me.

This has been in his life before he met me. It had nothing to do with me, nothing to do with how I looked, nothing to do with how I dressed or acted, or how I performed in bed. I just wish he would've approached it with vulnerability and  I,  I mean, I get it. I don't think what he did was right by hiding it from me at all.

I don't think that was right. However, I can have  more, I don't know if compassion is the right word, but. The more I research about porn and the more I understand like the shame behind it and how some people who are addicted may think they're the only person who is addicted. Maybe they just don't know it's a thing or just the embarrassment or what others will think.

Like I can understand that, but  I just wish he would've told me. That's, I think,  I think the level of anger I experienced, I know there still would have been anger, but the level to which I experienced anger and the self-blaming and the self just wanting to self harm, like I, yeah, I just wish he would have told me.

Yeah. It, it's something I hear time and time again that really the biggest pain is the, the lying, the deceiving, the manipulation,

you know, the, the act itself. Of course, it's not something that any partner is happy about, but it's something that you can work on together if there's that vulnerability and that,  that honesty and, and it takes a lot of courage for, for men to do that.

But, you know, it's, that really is the, the right thing to do is to be honest and, and work on it together rather than  manipulating and lying and deceiving. Yeah. 

Yeah, I think that's such a great point too. And going back to like the line and the disrespect and when, when I had caught him, I remember just feeling like, oh, he knew what he was doing and he wanted to be doing it, and he just wanted best of both worlds. Like he wanted  a relationship for the emotional satisfaction, the companionship, whatever.

But then he also wanted to live this other life where he could just have whatever sex he wanted, but I wish.  Where was I going with this?  I don't remember. Um, but yeah, I wish I, he just would've been honest with me, so, and told me that he didn't want to be doing what he was doing. Like that wasn't, he wasn't doing it with this malicious intent.

Intent. He wasn't doing it out of spite for me or like to get back at me or something like that. I think that would've been helpful.

And you know, I think that's  that's true for, for most men, if not. Maybe, I don't wanna say all, but I think for,  you know, 90, 95% of men who are struggling with this issue,  they don't want to be doing it. You know, it's this thing that they, they

know, they feel horrible about it. They know it's wrong. But then there's this, there's this other part of them that, you know, just is a junkie and wants to act out and, and it's just that that part is winning out in the conversation. But at their core, they, you know, they don't want to be a porn addict or a sex addict. They don't want to be mistreating their partner. It's just that  they're a junkie and they're, you know, that part of them needs their fix. And, and that's the unfortunate side of addiction. 

Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And I remember, um, it was actually so helpful having this conversation with you about this because I remember something I was really struggling after was just like the feelings of rage and like, why didn't you tell me why did you let this go on for so long? Like, why, especially before we moved in together or when we were having all those conversations about porn.

And something you said just really struck home with me when you said, some men will  think that when they get into the right relationship or when they get engaged or when they get married or when they have kids, like whatever that next life step is, they think that's whats gonna stop them and like finally get them to step out of it and like break free from the porn.

And Yeah, that was just a really helpful point. I remember you making out to me.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's for so many men, it's a constant struggle. It's a daily struggle of, of, you know, they're kind of the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other, like. This battle of like, no, no, don't act out, don't watch it. And then kind of, they give in and, and it's a real struggle. And I think, um,  you know, I, I just, I love highlighting that part, you know, that just, it does take a lot of courage because there's so much shame around porn addiction and sex addiction.

And,  and so I understand why it's hard. And so, you know, on that

note, I'm wondering  what advice you would have to any men who are in a relationship who haven't disclosed it to their partner.  Do you have any advice or anything that might be helpful? 

Yeah. Um, first and foremost, tell them please. Um, I, I, I can't imagine how scary it must be to  be, feel like you're hiding this from your partner and you don't know how they're gonna react or respond. I can't imagine how scary that is, but  I can imagine being the partner and finding out on your own, and that is something no person should ever have to go through.

It is traumatizing. It is  you, the, you second guess everything after that, their, your viewpoint on the world completely changes. Um, and so my,  my advice would be just tell them everything. Full disclosure. There, there are specialists who actually help people, help men disclose all the information to their partners.

And  just don't, don't try to hide any information. Don't try to downplay it. Um, something that.  What's really hard for me was I feel like I was making good progress in my healing journey, and then months later, a new girl would come forward, or months later, new information would come forward. And it just felt like I was continuously being re-traumatized and continuously having to go back to square one, continuously second guessing myself, like, oh my gosh, what else was he hiding?

Like I, and I've talked with a lot of people in support groups and everyone just emphasizes how important it's to have a full disclosure. Like they're so important that there's even specialists who can help you. Um, and  yeah, I mean, just. My other piece of advice would just to be vulnerable. I know it takes a lot of courage and I know that society tells men that you have to be tough and strong in order to considered like a man, but, and you can't show signs of weakness or pain or whether does that be emotionally or physically, which I don't agree with.

I think what makes a man is someone who can be vulnerable, someone who can say, Hey, I don't have it all figured out. Hey, I'm struggling with this. Hey, I need help. Like, just ask for help. Just tell your partner. Um,  yeah, and if I, if you're worried about how they're gonna respond, I just can't emphasize this enough.

The response is just gonna get worse. The longer and longer you drag it on. Like there's never gonna be that right time or that perfect time to help them. This information just, but just comes from a, from a space of vulnerability and that you're asking for help and that.  understand that they deserve to know this information.

You know, it impacts them and they, they deserve to know this. It's, it's really important.

Yeah,  you, since kind of the incident, you have gone on quite a journey and you have been. Exploring, you know, a lot of, uh, topics around addiction and porn addiction, and I'm curious, what has surprised you most from all the things you've learned? 

Um, 

Um,  the first thing that comes to mind is the amount of people who  feel like they have an unhealthy relationship with porn, or the amount of people who know they're addicted to porn. That  has completely blown my mind. Um,  yeah, and just how,  how much it impacts relationships. Like I.  I think what helped my healing journey the most was once I finally got through like the porn and sex PTSD triggers, and I could finally start like researching to understand like what this was.

It was just,  to me, when I found out it felt so personalized. It felt like it's complete attack on me. Like I did something wrong. My thought was never like, oh my gosh, what's wrong with him? Like what's his issue? It was always like, what's wrong with me? What did I do wrong? And I think what's been so interesting is just learning that most people who have an unhealthy relationship with porn usually got into it when they were in their young teenager years or early before.

And  no one was there to educate us on these long-term effects that porn could have. Society just wasn't talking about it. And  I just feel for those people who found it at a young age, and now they're dealing with this like.  That fucking sucks and I'm so sorry. Like it's, it's not fair. It's so cruel. It's,  yeah.

I just, something that has helped me a lot is when I feel these feelings of anger towards my ex, I just picture him as this like young boy when I know when he found it, and.  a boy who was hurting or who wanted love or acceptance, whatever it may be. And that just helps me have more compassion for it.

But yeah, I, the, I'm kind of just going on a tangent here, but the studies, when you get into porn addiction is insane. And I feel so passionate about it now 'cause I'm just like. Everyone needs to know about this. Like so many people, almost everyone watches porn and it feels like society is completely failing us by not letting us, like, by not making this research more evident.

And I mean, I think it's so cool to see like celebrities come out now talking about like Terry Cruz, like Billy Eilish, Orlando Bloom being like, nah, it's not good, and I think we are going to enter this, or we already are entering this era where people are speaking up about it more and all the negative impacts it has on mental health and intimacy, erectile dysfunction, I mean 

relationships, society.

Um, yeah. It's just, I don't get why this information isn't more, more mainstream. It pisses me off to be honest.

It's, I mean, it's such a fascinating topic in many ways. It's like the, the cigarette tobacco industry, you know?  Back in the, whatever

it was, the 1940s or fifties. And, you know, there's,  there's a huge industry behind, you know, the porn industry. It's, it makes more than all the major sports leagues combined.

There's a lot of money behind it. Um,  and yeah, it's being in many ways kind of silenced and because it's a, it's a sensitive topic. Nobody wants to talk about it. One thing that is really interesting, as you were speaking about kind of the, the compassion and the understanding that you have of, you know, many young boys find this when they're in their teens or preteens, and  what was coming to my mind is like, imagine a 8-year-old boy finding meth when he's, you know, when he is eight years old or nine years old, and starting to use it then and. It becomes just a daily habit, you know, for him since he's eight years old. And what makes it so vicious is  when you think about porn, it's something that's freely available. You know, you can get it on your phone, you can get it free wherever you are. It's,  it's always available to you. And so imagine this young 8-year-old boy finding meth, and imagine that the meth is always in his pocket.

It's always available, it's always free, and he can tap into it whenever he wants to. Of course, he's gonna become an addict, you know, if he's not

educated about the harms of it and, and all these things. And so it, that's really where porn addiction is. It's,  it's a, a substance that can just really invade people's lives. 

Completely. Especially, um, going back to like, if you access this when you're young, like.  It's this thing that makes you feel good initially, and it's a great way to self-soothe, and release stress or whatever uncomfortable emotions are coming up. It's a great way to kind of get rid of that for a while, but then it's like, okay, but at what point does it stop?

When do you start confronting these emotions, when you stop going to porn to make yourself feel better? And  yeah, it's just,  it's such a spiral and a cycle and  

And 

a lot of guys 

are 

clueless. Yeah. You know, like I got access to it when I was eight or nine years old, and I used it every day until I was, you know, in my early twenties. And I, I, didn't know, you know, it's like I had no, it was just something I did

every day. It was like brushing my teeth. It was just,  I, I had no kind of conception that it was something that was harming my life.

And so I think it, it really is valuable. All the work that you know, that you're doing now that these celebrities are doing, you know, what this podcast is about or trying to educate people about these harms.  Yeah.  I'm

curious. Last question I have for you. Is there anything that you wish men,  or what do you wish more men knew about porn? 

Um,  so I laugh, but, um, let's go on a little feminist rant.  No. Um, I think something that's so important to point out about porn is realizing how much it is a male driven society. Uh, sorry, not male driven society. Male driven industry. It's produced by men, it's casted by men. It's written by men. It's from the male's perspective.

Like it doesn't.  Show sex from the female's perspective, and it doesn't show that females need like a 20 minute lead time to actually feel aroused. It doesn't show how to ask for consent. It doesn't show how to stop doing something. If someone's saying no, it doesn't show, like, it doesn't show like asking the female what does she want, what is she interested in?

Like every female is different. Um, I can't speak for every female, but for myself, like I don't like the aggressive, like derogatory name calling, slapping, choking, gagging, whatever it may be. That is so common in porn, and I think that's just something that's missing. And then I talk to my male friends about it and they're just like, well, yeah, but that's what we see in porn. And, and it's not that I'm like here to blame them, but I think a lot of men go to porn to learn about sex, but then they're just learning about it from the male perspective and it just,  I don't know.

It's,  yeah. I,  I wish men just like could also understand this, how. Fake it is like all, I think something I struggled with so much with my ex was that I was like, I know I can't compare with these porn stars when it comes to looks and when it comes to what they're doing. Like they have so much body work done.

They have fake hair, they have fake eyelashes, fake, everything is just so fake. They have cameras, they have lighting. Like it's so extreme and done up and I'm like, I just woke up outta bed. And like, if my partner wants to have sex with me, of course that's great, but like, I'm not gonna be looking like a porn star, but like, nor should I need to either.

Like, I shouldn't need to compete with that. Um, but yeah, I think it's just, I don't think it teaches men how to have that like deep, intimate, emotional connection with the girl. Like how to really turn a girl on, like how to listen to her, how to ask for her, like how to make this like a safe space. I think that's.

The safety is key. Like when  I remember the few times when I would look at porn, it terrified me. I got so scared what they were doing to the girls and I was like, oh my gosh. Like if that sex, I want nothing to do with it. Like I will be celibate my entire life. That's not what I want. And in order for females to orgasm, like we need to feel safe.

Like, and I don't think porn communicates safety for the females and Yeah. Um, and I know I've been ranting a lot about like how men view porn and everything. And I know I like, I'm not trying to ignore the fact that there's also females who are addicted to porn and females who enjoy porn, but I'm just trying, I can only relate from a betrayed female partner who was dating a man.

Yeah, and it, it's the majority of what's out there. Like, yes, we can acknowledge that there is ethical porn out there, there is porn that portrays healthy intimacy, but it's, you know, it's 0.1% of what's out there. And so,  you know, it's, yeah, we can concede to that, that there is some healthy stuff out there, but 99.9% of what's out there is. You know, it's kind of this fantasy world created by men, and it's what leads to that zombie-like effect that you experienced with your partner where  there's

no connection, there's no intimacy, there's no presence. It's just eyes closed, fantasizing, kind of whatever position was his favorite, you know?  Yeah. 

So I think the key 

takeaway there 

And I could see why,

go for it. 

oh, sorry, go ahead. 

I was gonna say, um, and I can see why like one-on-one sex with her.  Long-term partner would just start to feel so boring after watching porn. Like you're seeing different scenes, different women, like multiple people, like always different styles. It's always something new.

It's always a new body. You never know what you're gonna get. And 

then you're in this long-term relationship with the same person, the same body. You're probably doing  different, different positions, but like it's not gonna be these grand old scenes or whatever you see in porn. It's like, of course it's gonna start to feel redundant and 

that that sucks.

It sucks for the female and it sucks for the male. Like  porn isn't benefiting anyone in that scenario.

It, it's something I talk about a lot that one of the consequences of porn addiction is that you get hooked on novelty. The thing that you are looking

forward to is not the depth of connection or intimacy, it's you get hooked on wanting to see something new. 'cause that's where the dopamine comes from.

Dopamine comes from some unexpected reward, you know, something that you're not sure what's gonna happen and you're looking forward to this secret surprise. And so  it, it's really one of the harms is that the only thing that you start craving is a fresh face, a different position, something exciting or titillating. Uh, and you know, obviously that will have serious consequences on a healthy, normal sex life with a long-term partner. 

Mm-Hmm, completely.

Yeah.  Any final words that you wanna leave the listeners today? 

Um,  I would like to say something too. If there are any betrayed partners who are listening to this, I.  I just want you to know you're not alone and there are so many support groups out here and people who can be here and can help you. There are so many licensed professionals who specialize specifically in betrayal trauma.

Like you're validated for what you feel. I wish someone would have just told me from the beginning that I was validated for feeling how I feel. And so I wanna communicate that with you. Um, but also if you ever like, wanna get connected to these resources or you don't know where to go, like you can, I'm always here if you wanna reach out.

Um, I, one of what I wish someone would've told me is one of the PTSD symptoms of this trauma is isolation and not trusting others and.  You, you can't go through this alone. I tried for a while. Um, you, you need these support groups and people who can relate to you. Um, it's, it's so helpful. Um, and then also just a note to any men who are watching this, I just wanna say thank you.

I hope I, I didn't come on here to like, shame anyone or make anyone feel bad. I, that's the last thing I would wanna do here. And I just, I have so much respect and compassion for men or women who are struggling with porn and they're actually trying to get the help and they're going the extra mile and they're speaking up and being brave.

And that's, that takes so much courage and we need more people like you. And I just, I applaud you. So thank you for, thanks for doing the work.

Yeah, everyone listening to this, you know, is, is  motivated to, to heal. And so those of you out there listening to this, you know, good on you for being on that journey.  Um, last thing, where can people get connected with you? Where can people find out more of what you're doing? 

Yeah. Um, you can find me on Instagram. My handle is, man,  it's spelled M-A-N-D-J. P-I-T-E-R-A. You can always just follow me if you wanna reach out, talk there. Um, I'm actually gonna start volunteering with an organization where I'll be going to like middle schools, high schools, and like community centers too, um, present on porn, just like the science and facts on it, which I'm super excited about.

Um, so more to come there, but yeah, don't hesitate to reach out if you have questions. I'm an open book. I wanna use what I went through to help other people because yeah, I think it's necessary.

Yeah. Well, Manny, it's been fantastic having you on. Uh, I'm really glad that we got you on to share your story and I know it's gonna be helpful for a lot of guys and for a lot of women as well. Um, so thank you once again for joining us,  and that's it today for the show. Everyone. Thanks for tuning in. We will catch you all on the next episode.