103. Jeremy Lipkowitz - The Path to Inner Freedom: Neuroplasticity, Mindfulness, and Porn Addiction Recovery

Today I'm joined by Taylor Chambers in this interview from the Porn Resilient Marriage Summit. Taylor and I discuss how mindfulness strengthens recovery efforts, tackles shame, and promotes healthier life choices. I share insights from the Unhooked Academy program, my training as a Buddhist monk, and my academic background in genetics and genomics. The conversation covers the science of neuroplasticity, the concept of equanimity, the importance of community, and the nuanced role of shame in recovery. This episode aims to help listeners understand and implement mindfulness practices to transform their lives.


Interested in joining the Unhooked Academy Group Program? Sign up for a free call:
https://www.unhookedacademy.com/

Looking for a self-led journey with the Unhooked Online Course:
https://jeremylipkowitz.mykajabi.com/unhooked

Interested in personal  1:1 coaching? Click here: https://www.jeremylipkowitz.com/intro

Connect with me on Social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremylipkowitz/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/JeremyLipkowitz


Shownotes:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction

00:22 The Role of Mindfulness in Recovery

03:04 Understanding Mindfulness and Its Benefits

07:59 Developing Mindfulness Skills

13:01 The Power of Non-Judgmental Awareness

20:51 Addressing Shame in Addiction

21:53 Understanding Toxic Shame

22:40 Buddhist Philosophy: The Two Guardians

24:05 Healthy Shame vs. Toxic Shame

28:43 The Role of Community in Healing Shame

33:13 The Power of Accountability

36:58 Embracing Healthy Sexuality

39:23 Introduction to Mindfulness Made Easy

39:39 Course Details and Final Thoughts



----------------


ABOUT JEREMY LIPKOWITZ

Jeremy overcame addiction, shame, self-judgement, and depression in his early twenties with the help of mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness not only helped him let go of destructive behaviors, it also allowed him to connect with deeper meaning and purpose in his life.

For the past 10 years Jeremy has been teaching mindfulness and emotional intelligence practices at universities, recovery centers, and companies throughout Asia and the US. He holds a Bachelors and Master’s degree in Genetics and Genomics, and spent several years at Duke University working towards a PhD in Genetics & Systems Biology before he turned full-time to teaching mindfulness.

Jeremy is also an ICF certified Executive Coach. As a former scientist and academic, Jeremy has a great passion for bringing his EI based coaching skills into the corporate and professional world. He realizes how powerful & transformative these practices can be for skeptics and senior-level managers. He is known for his calm and grounded demeanor, his expertise in habits and high-performance, and his compassionate approach to transformation.

Transcript

 I know one of the things that  every, every man who's addicted to porn deeply wants is inner freedom from the addiction.

Not just, okay, I want to create my environment so I never come into contact with porn. I want to be able to go anywhere and not have to worry about what I see because I know that even if there's porn right in front of me, it's not going to tempt me because I have that inner peace within. You know, that's what we all really want is that, that inner freedom, not just the outer freedom. 

​

    📍  📍  📍  📍    

Hey, hello friends, Taylor Chambers here. Welcome to this segment of the Porn Resilient Marriage. Um, I'm joined today by Jeremy. Oh, I should have asked that pronunciation. Lipkowitz, is that 

decent? All right. 

I want to make sure I get that. So, uh, yeah, Jeremy and I, um, have, uh, been familiar with each other's work.

And so I'm really excited that we get to connect today. Today, we're going to be talking specifically about mindfulness and how that, um, really. I guess you would say reinforces or even undergirds recovery work. Um, and we'll talk about shame and some other topics. And so, um, Jeremy's the perfect one to talk about these things.

He's a meditation teacher, a coach, and a porn addiction recovery expert. So it's kind of the perfect package for this topic in particular. Uh, Jeremy's created the Unhooked Academy program, um, with the Unhooked podcast, um, and has trained as a Buddhist monk in Myanmar. Um, and so, um,  I, I was telling him we'll have to, I'll have to get some training tips in a year or two when I, when I'm ready to,  Retreat or something like that.

We were talking about how, how does one get into this?  Um, and then as you would imagine, anybody who's got a background like that is also going to be pursuing high end academics, right? Um, so genetics and genomics degree, um, on top of it all, I found that there was this really interesting,  uh, combination.

It seems like people are kind of either in the academic world or the spiritual world, um, or I shouldn't say it that way. I should say it.  You kind of like go deep into either at university or a monastery. Um, but for somehow you found a way to do both, which is pretty cool. So  did I miss anything with the introduction?

Anything else that you want to throw out there, Jeremy?  

No, I think you nailed it. 

Okay. Perfect. All right.  Okay. Well, so, um, so many questions. I'm, I'm really curious about your story, but we're going to have to shove that a little bit because, um, the meat of what we're going to talk about today is mindfulness.

Yes. And it's become, um, in psychology, we've really picked it up recently. I mean, it's ancient, right? Thousands of years old. And, you know, all of a sudden we  realized that it matters in kind of a scientific and psychological way. And in fact, a lot of addiction programs have really. Integrated it as well.

Um, but a lot of times the way I see it, it's, it's kind of like a, an add on or a supplement to it. And I feel like the, the field is still figuring out how deep this can really go and how vital it is. And in many ways, it's kind of a  contrasting philosophy to what has. Uh, really driven, uh, addiction, uh, frameworks and so forth.

Anyway, so  let me, let me get after,  how is it that you see recovery and mindfulness coming together and why are they so important to keep in mind together?  

Yeah, well, mindfulness in my eyes is just such an important thing for being a well rounded human, you know, for all the different ways that we might want to grow and be wise and compassionate and skillful in our actions. 

Mindfulness is really about awareness and giving you the choice in how to choose how to live your life. There's this quote that I love. It comes from the work of Viktor Frankl, um, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning. He was a Holocaust survivor,  and he has this, this quote that comes from his work that says, Between stimulus and response, there's a space, and in that space is your power to choose your response,  and in your response lies your growth and your freedom. 

So it's this idea that between something happening and your response, there's actually a space there, but for most people, there's actually that space is very small and it's more like a reaction. There's a stimulus and then some immediate reaction habitual impulse. We just get pulled into it.  But in reality, there is a space there and in that space, we actually have the opportunity to choose how we want to live.

So let's say we see some porn pop up, you know, the immediate reaction might be from the, you know, the primal part of ourself to click on it and to dive in and to look, right? But we actually have some space there where we can say, is this how I want to live? Do I want to make this decision? And mindfulness gives us access to that space.

So that's one of the most important ways is that it just gives us a choice.  We have more awareness of what's going on, you know, a couple other ways I'll just, the thing is, for me, mindfulness has so many benefits. And so I couldn't actually, you know, we would be here for an hour if I wanted to tell you about all of the ways it helps. 

But 1 of the other important ways is that it helps us, you know, a lot of addiction is, it feels like you're getting hijacked. You know, your brain is getting hijacked by this addiction.  And on a very neurological sense, that's true. You know, there's something called the amygdala hijack, which is the amygdala, which is the fight, flight, or freeze response takes over the brain down, regulates the prefrontal cortex and just makes us want to fight or run or grasp after something. 

And mindfulness helps us prevent our brain from getting hijacked. You know, we can actually notice when we're about to get taken over by some strong emotion, whether it's lust or anger or sadness or frustration.  It also helps us unhijack the brain once we're hijacked.  So it can actually reactivate the prefrontal cortex.

It kind of brings our brain back online when we're hijacked and can down regulate our pre or the amygdala response.  Um, the 3rd way I'll say, and again, this is just 1,  you know, 3 in a long list of things.  A very important component of mindfulness is something that we call equanimity.  Equanimity is this quality of mind that is grounded, even in the face of something unpleasant.

You know, if there's some unpleasant emotion, we don't have to run away from it.  And if there's something pleasant in our experience, you know, some sugary delight or porn, we don't have to go grasping after it. We can stay grounded and balanced and centered. And that's a very important component of mindfulness, the equanimity. 

So those are just a few ways that mindfulness really helps, but it's, it's really just so important for everything.  

Yeah. Right. Well, exactly. Cause as you're talking, you know, it's clear that  for you, this is a whole lifestyle and there are so many different principles around mindfulness. Personally, for me, it was one of those things where, you know, I heard about it in grad school and it was interesting,  went on with more like solution oriented kinds of approaches.

Um, and then. Came back to it, um, kind of in a, in a time of need where like life didn't feel steady. And I was like, okay, let's look into this. And, um, I, I got some more knowledge and started practicing. Um,  and.  It's interesting because it's one of those things where you just don't stop finding the depths, right?

There's, there's always something more to learn out of some of the basic, you know, premises of, of mindfulness or by practicing mindfulness. There's always something more that you could observe or, you know, gain insight into. Um, and so, yeah, I really hope that, um,  uh, for our discussion, some of you always have zero knowledge and this is going to be an intro.

And then for some, they're gonna, they're gonna have some experience with mindfulness and, um, I don't doubt that  reviewing and going back over it can really help them find where's the, the edge that they haven't yet developed with their mindfulness skills. So,  yeah, with that, with that being said, how does one go about developing this mindfulness, that space in between stimulus and response? 

Yeah.  In order to answer that, maybe I'll, I'll share one more component of why I think mindfulness is so important. And this is just, it is the,  the foundation of our mind, you know, like one of the things that really turned me on, as you said, my background is in the sciences. And then I started getting really into spirituality and, It's kind of a blend of these two.

And I'd always been a little bit allergic to anything spiritual. I always thought it was a little bit of nonsense and fluffy, you know, fluffy stuff. And then I remember reading this book on neuroplasticity  and understanding on a very real sense that mindfulness is essentially training the mind in skills that are important for Happiness for fulfillment for connection  and one of the quotes that really turned me on was this quote that neurons that fire together wire together. 

And there's the idea that the more frequently we use certain neural pathways, the more frequently we think certain types of thoughts, the stronger those connections become, the stronger those pathways become.  And so if we're constantly thinking thoughts of lust or craving or desire.  We're, in a very real sense, strengthening those neural pathways, and they become more and more the habitual neural pathways of the mind. 

Conversely, we can actually strengthen things like contentment or gratitude or appreciation or patience. Simply by thinking those kinds of thoughts, we strengthen those neural pathways.  And so the way to cultivate more mindfulness is to simply practice it, to do it more often.  To learn it, I mean, there's so many avenues now.

There's different meditation apps. You can go and do meditation retreats.  As a part of this summit, you get free access to my mindfulness made easy course, which is a 14 day training guide. So there's, there's no excuse these days to not know mindfulness, right? It's like, it's everywhere. It's out there.  You just have to do it and you have to practice consistently.

You know, like if you want to be better at playing basketball, you can't just watch a one hour video and say, okay, I watched a one hour video. Now I know how to play basketball. You have to get on the court. And practice and put in the hours, and it's the same with mindfulness. You simply have to sit down  and observe what's happening in your experience.

And there are so many misconceptions around mindfulness and what it is. A lot of people think it's blocking out your thoughts or achieving this state of complete nirvana.  There's so many misconceptions, and this is one of the reasons why I created the course, is to dispel some of those misconceptions.

Um, but really at its core, it's about sitting down and observing your experience. What's happening in your body, what's happening in your mind, And what's happening in the environment around you and with a particular quality of attention. So it's not just a cold clinical observation. There's a gentle curiosity to your experience.

And that's very important because it's actually cultivating some things that we need like this nonjudgmental awareness. The equanimity that I mentioned before.  

Yeah, I love that description. I think that we can get caught up in,  uh, maybe two things. Either we bring awareness to it with that judgment of like, I know, I know, I know, like I I'm lusting and it's causing me suffering.

I get it. Right. Um, and there might be this resistance inherent in how we're observing. And so it's not just taking a look at what's going on, but you're, you're saying, um, how did you put it? There's a quality to our observation. Right. A tone with which we observe. Um, and then with awareness, I think a lot of times, you know, I've had clients in the past that,  you know, awareness feels like knowledge.

Um, and so again, when they know something,  it's like, there's no more curiosity. Like. I got it. It's because of my unmet needs from childhood. And now that's what's causing the cravings or whatever. And then it's like, okay, I figured that inside out now what's next. And so a lot of times there's ongoing searching for like new information rather than kind of being in the present moment and kind of really curious about how this moment is showing up and how these needs feel, um, and so forth. 

But yeah, I love that emphasis. It's just something that you, you do it over and over and over again. It's not something that great. I've achieved awareness now.  You know, now I can, uh, use that knowledge to, to squash the feelings or something like that. 

Yeah. And I want to just pick up on that point that you mentioned around the quality of the non judgmental awareness because it's so important that, as you say, a lot of times when we start, first start bringing some awareness to what's happening, especially around addiction,  there can be a lot of self judgment and self hatred.

You know, let's say we're seeing some repeating pattern of lust or acting out.  And let's say you become aware of lust and it can be this, this real judgment of, Oh, lust is here again. Oh, I'm such a failure. I'm not meditating correctly.  And that just exacerbates the addiction and it exacerbates the lust. 

And instead with mindfulness, you know, I try to coach my clients to get to this place when they notice lust to just have a very calm, gentle voice saying, Oh, there's lust again.  Or, you know, even one of the techniques I like is to say my old friend lust.  You know, it's this very inviting, accepting,  open awareness that makes space for any experience.

And. Ironically, that is one of the things that's been shown to help  overcome addiction is a more accepting approach rather than suppressing the lust or desire or the addiction to just say, Oh, this is here right now. What do I want to do with this energy?  

Yeah, absolutely. It feels gutsy because, you know, I think, I think most of us grew up with  kind of this notion of like,  uh, even my daughter will sometimes like, I don't know what.

I mean, I suppose she got it from my wife and I, but I don't know that I taught it directly, but you know, she's like, please help me not have bad thoughts for her. She's not thinking sexual at her age.  She's thinking more like creepy, scary thoughts from the stories that we, you know, readers that she saw in a book or something like that.

And, uh,  and so there's something so, so natural about that.  But what you're describing is like, um,  settling with its presence, like being okay with the fact that lust or fear or whatever it might be is showing up in this moment. And that's a pretty radical departure from our automatic conditioning, I feel like. 

1000%. It is it is in some ways the most radical thing.  And this is why it my life changed 180 degrees when I learned about this. Because my whole life I had been chasing after pleasure and running away from pain running away from anything unpleasant,  whether it was an unpleasant body sensation, an unpleasant emotion, and running chasing after anything pleasant. 

And that's, in many ways, what addiction is, is I don't want to feel this pain. I want some pleasure to numb me out, right? And that's many people's strategy for life as well. But with mindfulness, it is this radical new strategy of saying,  this is just unpleasant. It's just an unpleasant emotion. I don't need to run away from this. 

I can actually be at peace in this moment. Even if there's some sadness, even if there's loneliness, I can just be here with the loneliness.  And I can be in the presence of something very pleasant, but I don't have to grasp after it  and try to cling to it and have it and achieve it because both of those states are suffering. 

So, you know, as you mentioned earlier, like, this is more of a lifestyle for me. 100%. It's a lifestyle. It's a lifestyle of noticing where they're suffering. And noticing the pathway to fulfillment or to inner peace is through letting go of that grasping and that aversion.  Yeah. 

Absolutely.  I love that. And in fact, this has been top of brain recently because even this morning I'm drafting up an email, um, and, um, hopefully I'll, I'll have it done by my deadline of Wednesday.

But at the time of this recording, I'm writing it about the, the myth or the legend, I guess you could say of  the Buddha and Mara. And how the Buddha achieved enlightenment and, um, the, I won't get into the, the actual story right now, but the essence of the whole myth is this one of, um,  uh, being, uh, equanimous in the presence of kind of Mara is the, the figure that more or less kind of represents evil and, and darkness in the world and, um, You know, just as you said that, you know, my old friend, you know, lost or something like that.

Um, in many accounts of this myth, you know, the Buddha is just saying, I see you Mara, right? Like it's kind of this reckoning, recognizing, and there's not resistance, nor is there like kind of, uh, playing into the, the energy that's, that's presented. And so it's, it's being able to kind of find that immovable place where. 

you can remain while the things are being experienced and you're observing them. So anyway, 

yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's, it's such a powerful story. I love that story because it's like Mara sent these, you know, these armies of violence and also sent these like lovely, beautiful women to seduce the Buddha.

And as you say, the Buddha is just like, I see you. And once you see it, it doesn't have power over you.  And it's about cultivating that, like, sanctuary within yourself, that power within yourself. Because 

 

I know one of the things that  every, every man who's addicted to porn deeply wants is inner freedom from the addiction.

Not just, okay, I want to create my environment so I never come into contact with porn. I want to be able to go anywhere and not have to worry about what I see because I know that even if there's porn right in front of me, it's not going to tempt me because I have that inner peace within. You know, that's what we all really want is that, that inner freedom, not just the outer freedom.

Absolutely. And that's what 

this is about, is cultivating that inner freedom. 

Yeah. Yeah. Um, cool. I'll, I'm loving this. Yeah. So, um, that kind of inner freedom, I, I agree. I think everyone really wants that and yeah, I think a lot of times. It is, um, the banner has taken up, like, I will be so on top of it. I'll be so righteous.

I'll be so pure or whatever that those things just won't assail me. And that's kind of, you know, that's the version that they might look toward. And so the invitation here is like, well, consider what it would be like to, you know, abide in the presence of lust without necessarily getting hooked. Right. Um, and that's going to be a really important consideration. 

And that's just one one little tip that we can give people right now is like, 

yeah,  

if lust comes up in your experience, it doesn't mean that you're a failed, you know, porn recovery person, lust will continue to come up. And the question is not Like, does it come up or not? It's just, what do you do with it when it does arise?

And does it take control? Does it hijack the bus and start driving for you? Or do you have the presence of mind to notice it and just say, Oh, okay, lust is here.  How do I want to act on this energy? You know, do I want to go down this rabbit hole of opening up or not? Or do I want to,  you know, sit with this emotion or channel it into the gym or into my career or into my relationship?

Um, and so, It's again, it gets back to that judging yourself thing. I see so many people when they feel something like lust, there's so much self judgment, but just to let go of the judgment and say, Oh, okay, this is coming up right now.  

Absolutely.  Um,  well, let me shift this to. Um, the experience of shame, because that's kind of what you're talking about right now.

Just like, oh, this thing showed up and then all of a sudden we assign some meaning to that. That means something like, you know, I suck or, you know, I'm a loser. Why, you know, why would I be susceptible to this? Um, so what are your thoughts on shame? I know you've, uh, Um, you introduced me to a phrase that I don't fully understand yet, which is the two guardians of the world.

And so I'm really curious to kind of unpack shame from whatever this might, uh, involve. 

Yeah, it's such, I love this topic of shame because in,  it's both the thing that keeps us trapped in addiction.  And it's also, you know, the doorway to freedom. Um, and it's such a misunderstood  topic that I like diving into it because, you know, we should start off by saying toxic shame is very unhelpful.

You know, toxic shame, this feeling like, oh, I'm broken. If people knew what I did, that they would kick me out of the tribe, um, that kind of shame, which causes us to isolate, to run away, to act  is  one of the things that keeps us trapped in addiction.  And so it's very important. And this is why we can talk later about community and the importance of community, but learning how to let go of toxic shame and let yourself be seen  as you are, you know, with all the pros and cons and the faults and everything, and letting go of shame, particularly sexual shame, learning how to embrace sexuality is really important,  but at the same time, sometimes  Shame gets demonized a little too much.

And we say, okay, shame is completely bad. Let it go. And I find it really interesting in kind of the Buddhist philosophy, there are these, um, things called the two guardians of the world.  And so in going back a little bit more in Buddhist philosophy, a lot of it's just about different mind states and what are some healthy mind states to cultivate and unhealthy mind states that are, we want to let go of. 

So these healthy or wholesome mind states, all of them are pleasant. They feel good. So things like love, patience, compassion, equanimity, they actually feel pleasant, and they're wholesome for us. And all the unhealthy mind states are unpleasant. So anger, hatred, frustration, they have an unpleasant feeling tone. 

But there's two exceptions. So there are two wholesome mind states that are good to cultivate, but they feel unpleasant to us.  And these are called the two guardians of the world and their moral dread and moral shame.  

So 

moral dread is this feeling, this fear that if I do this thing, wise people will, you know, judge me or something like that.

It's this feeling of this thing. If I do this, you know, bad consequences are going to come. That's moral dread. Moral shame is I've done this unskillful  thing and wise people, you know, will think.  you know, lowly of this thing. So that's that moral shame. And in my eyes, it's a healthy shame. So I like to delineate between toxic shame and healthy shame  because we need that quality of healthy shame.

We need this corrective mechanism to protect us from doing unskillful things.  If we've harmed someone  and we're feeling the shame of that, we're feeling like, Oh, I've done this harmful thing.  That is actually a protection. You know, it keeps us from doing it again. 

Right. 

And so we don't want to throw away that bad feeling.

We want to actually learn from it. And we want to say, Hey, yeah, I did act unskillfully and it does feel bad. It feels heavy on my soul that I've acted in this way.  And that is a guardian. So those two are the guardians of the world that keeps us from doing unskillful things.  And in her book, um, Dopamine Nation, have you read Dopamine Lemke?

No, I've heard of it. Um, I've heard it referenced a lot, but I haven't read it myself. Yeah. 

So she's like a Stanford researcher. She studies dopamine, studies addiction. And in the final chapter of the book, she talks about shame as well. And she touches on it in a similar way. She talks about again, toxic shame versus pro social shame. 

And pro social shame is the kind of shame that we feel in a healthy way, but it makes us still want to connect with other people.  So, for example, in my unhooked community or in any kind of men's group, you can actually share something that you're ashamed of,  but you can be seen and validated by the people in your community.

It's a safe space to share it.  And so I just like to emphasize that because a lot of people will throw out shame completely. You know, you go either one extreme or the other. You either completely shame everything. Oh, I'm such a bad person. I can't believe I watch porn. I'm horrible. Or you throw it out completely and say, well, shame is just bad.

You shouldn't shame anything,  but there is a sweet spot. You know, you want to let go of the toxic shame, but actually use that healthy shame,  you know, to say, Hey, I actually did do something unskillful.  I did do something, you know, that caused harm to myself or to other people. And I want to use that. That feeling that, you know, painful feeling to protect myself from doing it again. 

So those are the two guardians of the world. 

I love it. Yeah. Well, anytime we get to add, you know, phraseology like that, I'm, I'm down for it. I like that anthropological, the philosophical stuff. But, um, yeah, I think that's really wise. I remember there was a point in my journey where. I got, um, you know, kind of my, my, I guess I would say my first, um,  uh, my first, uh, round of really taking a look at shame and what that felt like and how it was affecting me and, you know, very, um, very much through a lens of Brene Brown's work, which, um, you know, I think is actually.

Uh, quite solid, but my initial interpretation was kind of like how I was pursuing, uh, lust and, and sexual unwanted sexual behavior, which was like, okay, the goal is never again, you know, and so let's, you know, toxic shame is bad. Just like porn is bad. Let's, let's make sure those don't ever show up again.

And.  It was not a sustainable, uh, mission. So, you know, I failed the mission and, um, you know, her terminology is, um, is, uh, shame resilience. And so I think that's, there is something much more about, like, how do we feel that? And work through it and come back from that.  And it reminds me of like, we really appreciate those people who can call us out on our crap  and to kind of have that voice, but you know, it's got to have that, that tone of respect and gentleness, at least for me, and I think for almost everyone, and so it's kind of that fine line between, um, criticizing ourselves, you know, incessantly, which many of us do and.

You know, endlessly self justifying and letting ourselves off the hook, which I think is how many of us start our self compassion work on accident. Um, but yeah, when we can really find, like, there's a version of this that's not helpful,  but I don't want the whole thing to go away. I want to, I want to be able to work with this emotion, um, and allow it to do its thing that it's trying to do with me.

So. 

Yeah. 

Yeah.  Framing it as a guardian I feel like is a really, really important framing. That seems really cool.  

Yeah. 

Now, you mentioned community as part of this. This helps reduce the shame.  Um, 

 

in what other ways are like community or relationships really important or involved in the recovery process? 

 

Addiction  thrives in isolation, you know, it thrives in these dark corners of our soul where we feel, you know, we feel broken, we feel alone, and we want to just run away from everyone and not be seen, right? And so, if you can be in community, it's one of the most powerful healing things. You know, getting out of that isolation because one of the things it does is it helps us heal that shame.

You know, shame is this feeling like I'm broken and if I'm seen for who I really am, I will be unloved. I will be kicked out. It's related to that imposter syndrome also.  So being in community is just really powerful for healing shame when if you're in a type of community in an intentional community, maybe it's a men's group or support group where you're asked to be  authentic, to be vulnerable, to be yourself, to bring the things that scare you.

Not just to be in community and have this facade of perfection in front of you, but to actually show up fully.  And so one of the things it does, it helps you heal that shame and be seen.  The other thing, as you mentioned earlier, it's like, it's a great place to have.  people who are wiser than you call you out on your bullshit. 

There's almost nothing better than having someone you kind of like respect and looked up to just call you out on something and say, Hey, you know, I see you doing this thing. What's behind that? 

Yeah. 

You know, and we need that. We've lost that in many ways in our very secular society. You know, there. We used to have different kind of rites and rituals and initiations and ways of being held by elders, but we don't have that anymore. 

And so being in community, finding it somehow, in a real community where you are being held accountable, and you're being held to that higher standard, and you are being mentored, is just so powerful.  

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, that kind of accountability  is, um,  oh, I don't know. I think, uh,  well, I don't know if this is true.

I guess I was going to say that that that's pretty rare these days. And I think it is. But at the same time, um, I feel like  there are countless numerous, you know,  Groups associated with this idea of like, Hey, we're going to come together. We're going to be real. And so I do think it's, it's accessible. It's, it's something that can be found, but I think kind of our default, you know, we go to high school, we're not going to necessarily find it there.

You know, go to college. We're not necessarily going to find it there. We joined the workforce or do whatever we do. Not necessarily going to find it there. It can be an easy thing to just never become involved with. Um, and, um, church and community groups like that. Are often more focused on our aspirations than on our authenticity and so they can fail to supply that that.

Realness that that's that's really showing up  with some with some important exceptions. That's not always the case, but.  Yeah, that community is a very rich, rich resource for people.  

And I think you're right. Your initial inclination was right. I think it is very rare in our society to have these spaces. I mean, I think you and I are, maybe we live in a little bit of a bubble because we're in this space.

And so we're, we're surrounding ourselves, but right. But for the vast majority of society, 

 

so much of our culture is pushing people towards  show up as perfect. Have a beautiful Instagram feed. Have a great LinkedIn profile. Show how amazing you are. Don't show your faults. Don't talk about how you're struggling.

Um, and it's very hard for people to find that. And it's, it's uncomfortable. And I think you have to go against the stream and intentionally seek it out because it's not gonna find you. You have to really put in the effort and put yourself outside your comfort zone to get access to these kinds of communities. 

And so I think it is very rare to have that accountability and accountability is so valuable in recovery. In some ways I'd say it's  more valuable than, than mindfulness or anything else. It's like 

 

being held accountable by other people is, it's one of the biggest missing things for anyone out there who's listening, who says they've tried quitting porn and they just can't. 

You got to first ask yourself, are you getting accountability?  Because doing this by yourself is just so, so challenging. Yeah. And if you can get accountability and just be in some kind of group or support group, it's a huge benefit.  

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I, uh, I've done various versions of this work throughout different seasons of my career.

And, um,  I, I feel like, um,  those group spaces where people can come. And I, sometimes my favorite groups were the ones where we were just starting off and nobody knew each other, super awkward, right? And everybody's just like,  okay, well, we all know why we're all here, you know, but, and then, you know, almost always there's just one person who's like, You know, okay, like, guys, here's my story, right?

It's but, you know, if I'm going to do this thing, here's what, you know, you're going to be working with, you know, with me in this group, and they'll share their story. And then everybody else starts to kind of like, thaw out. And it's just like, Oh, we can do that here. Like we can be real and then somebody, you know, naturally they're all going to give props to the guy.

They're, they're going to really love his, his vulnerability. And, um, when that kind of culture can really gel, it makes such a big difference. And so, you know, it's an important reflection point of like, do I have people I can show up with and share my reality with in a way that both offers support and that accountability both.

And, you know, that can be, you know,  hard to find and well worth the effort to seek it out. So,  

and that's the, the, the perfect combination is like, you can have the vulnerability  or you can have the accountability. Sometimes you don't have them together and that's tough, but if you bring them together, you know, a space where you can be real and be vulnerable and talk about what's really going on.

And at the same time, have a community of brothers or whatever group you're in that is going to hold you to that higher standard. And say, Hey, I see you and I know you're struggling and I know you've got this and I know you can, you can step up and that you can live in a healthy way and to have people like that champion you and believe in you. 

That combination of the 2 of those things is really powerful. 

Yeah, yeah, well put. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it can get imbalanced sometimes. And I think sometimes those, those groups, um, yeah.  Uh, end up kind of  keeping us where we're at if we're not involved in both sides of it. So.  All right. Well, so I want to talk about your course, but before I do any other ideas on mindfulness, shame, community, or anything that we missed that you wanted to throw out there 

could be that we covered it all. I don't know.  

I know we didn't cover it all because I feel like you and I could probably talk for for 6 hours. I'm just trying to think if there's anything like really important. Um,  you know, I think. Just the most important thing and you probably cover this all the time, you know, in your podcast or, you know, your series  is just really understanding that if you're out there with an unwanted porn use habit  or porn addiction, you know, whatever level it's at for you, like you're not broken and it's just, it's part of being human.

Like we are sexual beings, like we  have this part of, of who we are, which is. So beautiful and it's something we don't want to give up and I think this is relates to letting go of sexual shame  and embracing a healthy sexuality is to not shun your sexuality and to not think that it makes you broken or wrong.

It's actually a beautiful part of being human and being alive.  And so of course lust and desire is going to come up and it's It's not a problem. There's no,  there's no indication that, okay, therefore I'm broken. It's just, are you engaging with it in a healthy and skillful way? That's the real question.

Not,  I shouldn't have this, I need to suppress it and repress it and push it down. It's, okay, this is an energy that's powerful.  How do I want to use this skillfully? How do I want to use this to bring more joy and harmony and love? And, fun to my life and to the lives of people around me. Yeah. And that's the real question.

Not like bad versus good. It's skillful versus unskillful. 

Yeah. 

So that's the, I guess the final thing I'll say. 

Cool. I love that. Yeah. Uh, that terminology specifically has been really, uh, that's what I, um, love about Buddhist thought and in many regards, just, you know, uh, trained mind, untrained mind, skillful versus unskillful.

Those are very different things than, you know, good or bad. And it gives us a little bit of like, uh, much more of a foothold to start getting access with.  

And more breathing room. Like if it's just good or bad, then it's like the moment you do something, you know, like quote unquote bad. It's just like, Oh, I'm a bad person.

Yeah. But if it's, yeah. If it's skillful versus unskillful, it gives you more breathing room of like, Oh, I'm on a journey. Like I'm training my mind to be more skillful. 

Yeah. 

I'm training my heart to, to live with more skill and wholesomeness. Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah, absolutely. Awesome.  All right. Well, so, um, plenty for viewers to reflect on and take action on.

Um, and specifically as a follow up you've included in the all access implementation bundle, mindfulness made easy. Can you share a little bit more about what that is?  

Yeah, so this is a 14 day training guide for learning the fundamentals of mindfulness meditation  and I created it because there are so many misconceptions, you know, I spent over a decade teaching meditation.

I spent time as a Buddhist monk and have a very secular scientific background. So I feel like I, I brought together those two in a really nice way.  And what this course does is every day, there is a short explainer, you know, somewhere around five minutes of explaining a new concept of mindfulness. And then there's a roughly five to 10 minute guided meditation. 

So each day you can learn a little new concept in mindfulness and then practice it in a guided meditation. And it takes you step by step to mastering the fundamentals. And so every day you can just watch one module and you really learn how to practice by yourself. So that by the end of the course, you can actually just sit down on your couch and practice on your own.

You don't need a guided meditation every time you want to meditate. 

Yeah. 

And so that's really what the course is about.  

Cool. I love that. Yeah. And hopefully by now you guys are seeing just how valuable that really is. That ability to sit with our own minds, bodies, environment, and, uh, bring nonjudgmental presence to it.

So cool, obviously strong recommendation to check that out. So,  all right, Jeremy, it's been a blast. Um, I'm sure, uh, I'll have to, uh, stay in touch and get some, uh, Myanmar travel tips or something like that down the road, so  

we'll see. Definitely. 

But, uh, yeah, appreciate the comments on mindfulness again, viewers, uh, pull one thing at least out of this that you can implement on and, um, definitely give that course a  strong consideration.

That'd be an excellent way to spend the next two weeks. So,  okay. All right. We'll close out there. Thanks again, Jeremy.  

Thank you.