109. Paul Lavergne - The Sexual Recovery Therapist Helping Men Overcome Compulsive Sexual Behaviors Through Insight and Compassion

In this episode of 'Unhooked', host Jeremy Lipkowitz welcomes Paul Lavergne, a registered psychotherapist and sexual recovery therapist from Ontario, Canada. Together, they delve into the complexities of compulsive sexual behaviors, from the signs and core beliefs of a sex addict to the deep-rooted impacts of shame and trauma. Paul shares his personal and professional journey, emphasizing the importance of mindfulness, self-awareness, and group support in recovery. He also highlights the role of societal normalization in exacerbating these issues and offers practical advice for those struggling to break free from addiction. This conversation provides valuable insights for anyone seeking to understand or overcome compulsive sexual behaviors.

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Shownotes:

00:00 Introduction: Are You Living a Double Life?

00:27 Four Core Beliefs of a Sex Addict

00:41 Meet Paul Laverne: Expert in Sexual Recovery

01:55 Paul's Journey and Professional Background

05:01 Defining Compulsive Sexual Behavior

09:46 Paul's Personal Struggle with Porn Addiction

13:39 Realization and Recovery

17:39 The Role of Trauma in Sex Addiction

18:53 Behavioral Change and Accountability

20:09 The Importance of Sexual History

26:55 Mindfulness in Recovery

30:38 Facing Stress and Remedies

31:29 Understanding the Space Between Stimulus and Response

33:03 Dealing with Trauma and Emotional Complexity

34:45 Grounding Techniques and Self-Regulation

37:57 The Role of Shame in Addiction

50:12 Common Mistakes and Denial in Addiction

57:19 Advice for Those Struggling with Recovery

59:35 Conclusion and Contact Information

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Connect with Paul:
https://www.youtube.com/@turningpoint4me
https://www.turningpoint4me.com/

Transcript

 are you living a double life? Are you keeping secrets? Are you literally creating an entire web of lies and deceit around your sexual behavior? Because that's, you know, not cool. And that really shows that there's something going on here that's a problem 

  you've been hijacked because porn is a super normal stimulus.

So it's like, in a way you never had a chance. Like you show this to anyone's brain and like, they're gone. It's just, that's just what's going to happen. Right. 

  four core beliefs of a sex addict. I'm a bad, unworthy person is one. Number two, if you really knew me, you wouldn't like me. Number three is I can never trust others to meet my needs. And number four is sex is my most important need.

 ​

 My guest today is Paul Laverne. Paul is a registered psychotherapist and sexual recovery therapist. With the American association of sex addiction therapists. He works out of Ontario, Canada and is the clinical director of turning point counseling. For the last 13 years, Paul has helped many men overcome compulsive sexual behaviors. And also works with the partners of those who struggle.

Paul trains other therapists in his two day intensive workshops and has been a keynote speaker as well as appearing on radio, television and other podcasts. He also hosts a YouTube channel where he interviews experts from around the world on a variety of topics related to his practice. In this episode, we discuss compulsive sexual behaviors, the impact of shame and the importance of understanding your past experiences for effective healing and recovery.  So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Paul Laverne.  

All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of unhooked. I'm your host, Jeremy Lipkowitz, and I'm joined today by a very exciting guest, Paul Laverne. Paul, welcome to the show. 

Hi, Jeremy. Thanks for having me. 

Nice to have you here.  if you could just give a little brief overview of, of what you do and who you help the listeners today, that'd be great. 

Yeah, sure. So I'm a registered psychotherapist in practice in Ontario, Canada and Peterborough, city of Peterborough. It's a really small, lovely city of 84, 000 about an hour and a half. East of Toronto.  So I've been in practice for 13 years. I am also a clinic director of Turning Point Counseling. That's a group practice that I'm just starting to get going after being on my own for 13 years. I'm expanding into a group practice. I've also done trainings for therapists. I, I treat a lot of what I call compulsive sexual behaviors. So, um, you know, when people ask, when I'm, when I'm chatting with someone in the grocery store and they ask what I do, I'm like, do you really want to know?  So, uh, Yeah, compulsive porn use, masturbation, serial hookups, cheating, affairs, sexting, texting, strip clubs, escort, paying for sex, swinging, swapping, cam girls.

That's what I call another day at the office. So I work with a lot of those behaviors and I do kind of the normal counseling stuff too with depression, anxiety and stress and sort of the normal mental health issues, but about 60 percent I would say of my clients. So. Uh, struggle with some kind of compulsive sexual behavior.

So that's my focus. My passion. I do trainings for therapists to up here in Canada were woefully uninformed in the mental health community about this problem. There's not a graduate program anywhere that gives any Any training to my knowledge on treating compulsive sexual behaviors. And it's probably one of the fastest growing problems that we've seen in the last 10 years. So I do some trainings on that. I got a, uh, reboot that, uh, since Colvin, I haven't done any in person training. So Colvin. Uh, kind of put a dent in that, but I want to reboot that. I really love it. Had lots of good feedback on that. Been a keynote speaker at conferences, been on radio TV podcast, just talking about this, and I have a YouTube channel where I interview, uh, experts from the world.

I think we have some mutual acquaintances on there. Maybe, maybe Mandy Patera, Victoria Sinnes, Melinda Tankard Rice, uh, some, some mutual acquaintances. And I've talked to many other people, people that have been in the porn industry, survivors of the porn industry. And people who have also shared on there about their own journey of recovery.

So it's just a passion project of mine, and I like doing it. And I like coming on things like this and just having conversations with other like minded people.

So that's

me.

great. Yeah. And I guess for context for the listeners out there, you know, I first saw you, I saw your stuff on Instagram and just really loved the way you were talking about this whole field. You know, I felt very grounded in, in both compassion and research, you know, so it was kind of a no nonsense approach, which in this field, there can be a lot of nonsense stuff out there on social media.

And so I really liked seeing the way that you 

Approach this. Um, I'm curious. 

And I also, I love that you just came up with, you know, that full list of all these various compulsive sexual behaviors that a lot of people might recognize. Um, and I'm just curious for you, how do you define a compulsive sexual behavior?

Because there's probably kind of a thin line between  normal, healthy, just kind of a sexual experience and sexual kind of outlet. And so how do you define that compulsive part? 

That's a great question. There's lots of tests you can get out there, um, that are already been done by, you know, people smarter than me.  

 



When someone's coming in, usually I start with a real simple four question,  uh, uh, intake. So have you tried to cut back and stop your sexual behaviors and failed? Yes or no.  Have you continued in your sexual behaviors despite negative consequences? Yes or no. Is there tolerance and escalation in your sexual behaviors? And I explain that to them, you know, yes or no. Do you experience a withdrawal? And that's a tricky one sometimes, but there's there's usually a yes to that.  And, and I'll work in some other ones too.

Like, like a big one is, 

 

are you living a double life? Are you keeping secrets? Are you literally webbing and, uh, sorry, are you literally creating an entire web of lies and deceit around your sexual behavior? Because that's, you know, not cool. And that really shows that there's something going on here that's a problem.  Intrusive, persistent thoughts. Um, you know, so  



I'm not really hung up on the word addiction, you know, and a lot of people play with that and throw it around and there's no such thing as porn addiction. And, you know, they have their, I mean, I, when I first came across it, Jeremy, I was literally like flabbergasted.

I'm like, I didn't even know what to think about the, you know, people saying this mental health professionals, right?  A bit of that is a play on words, and here, here's how they work that. So, okay, if you're a cocaine addict,  the cure is abstinence from cocaine.  If you're a sex addict, then the cure must be abstinence from sex.

So, you can never have sex again.  Of course, that's absurd. So, therefore, there's no such thing as a sex addiction. That's, that's kind of the reasoning, right? Have you heard this line of,

have you heard this 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I usually hear it in, 

in the vein of, you know, people saying, Oh, porn can't be an addiction or sex can't be an addiction. And it usually seems to come from people who are kind of on the more liberal kind of woke side who think that by talking about sex or porn as an addiction, they think that you're shaming sexuality.

And it's, it's more of a misinterpretation that they don't understand the nuances that, Hey, you can actually celebrate sexuality and have healthy 

sexuality. And you can also 

have an addiction, you know, addictive relationship with these things as 

well. And so that's kind of where I see it coming 

from.  

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And it's either it's a red herring like it's an irrelevant thing or it's just a total straw man Right. Oh sex addiction means that you're shaming and stigmatizing people. I'm like and I again I was I checked my head I'm like what who I don't know who you're talking to but 

 

I've never  Brought a guy in my office and go.

Okay, sit down you piece of shit I just want you to know how shameful you are for watching pornography. Let's start off the session with that Okay, are we clear here that you're a bad person like as if we say that

to people right trust me They've already done enough of a job shaming themselves before I

see them I'm all about getting rid of the shame right from day one, right?  

I'll get I'll get guys to say out loud I am NOT a bad person because I look at pornography  and some of them will start crying  Jeremy, it's like the shame so bad, right?

it's so interesting because 

that really is one of the biggest,  The biggest negative impacts of, of this compulsive behavior or addiction, whatever you want to call it, it's just the way that people can build these stories of shame and really take it to heart that they're a bad person. And I think so much of the work that, that I definitely do.

And I imagine it's the work you do. It sounds like it is. It's just letting people know that they're not a bad person because they have desires because they've watched porn, any of these 

things.  

yeah, and the toughest guys to work with are the religious guys, the

Christian guys, because they have, and I'm not saying anything bad about religion or, you know, Christians or whatever, love them all. But, uh, they got that extra

layer. I'm a sinner. It's a sin. God hates me. God's mad at me.

Um, you know, they, they, sometimes they can't even say that.

Well, I can't say that. I am a bad person. It's a sin.

It's wrong. You know, and so we have a conversation around, um, Around that. 

Yeah.  Very curious. What got you into this line of work? Like, what led you into the work of psychotherapy and healing people in this 

space?  

yeah, well, I had a few careers in the past. So, uh, worked in construction way back when I got married, uh, became a loan broker, worked in finance, got back into construction, uh, worked in the finance industry. I was a branch manager at a finance, uh, doing loans, subprime lending and things like that. So I have a wide range of careers, uh, but always personally struggled with compulsive porn use since my first exposure at age 10.

I have a very. Typical classic story, you know, seeing Playboy at age 10, the magazines and, you know, then evolving, like my,  my relationship to porn evolved with the industry itself. So, you know, started with magazines and then they got more explicit, of course. And then the eighties hit, I'm a teenager in the eighties, VHS comes out.

Oh my God, this look at this, right?  And then, you know, DVDs and like the, the, the, uh, the evolution of the technology in my generation, well, yours too, is absolutely astounding. It's unprecedented in history and porn has been right along with that. And then of course the internet changed everything. So I had a, I had a problematic relationship to porn.

I'd say I was, I was addicted to porn and other, other sexual behaviors,  uh, for about 20 years,  uh, 25 years. And so I finally found a, I finally found a therapist that sort of knew what he was talking about. Most of the therapists I talked to were incompetent and completely unhelpful. He finally got me on the right track.

He's the first guy that I ever went to that, that said to me, you're a

porn addict. And you have extreme depression.  

So Jeremy, it's bizarre, I say this to clients all the time, it never entered my mind in 20 years. I am a porn addict. Never entered my mind. I thought addicts were the, the bums in the ditch with the needle sticking out of their

arm or the, you know what I mean?

Like I had this stereotype of, of

addicts, right? I was married. I had kids. I lived in, I lived in Toronto. I, I had a great job. I owned a house there. We drove a nice car, you know, like I was like, I'm not that. So, so it never occurred to me. So that really rocked my world, you know, and got me thinking, you know, is he, is he right?

You know, like I can't really deny this as a problem. So long story short, I finally, I got into my recovery. And early in that, like, just as I was starting out, I was sitting in the office with my wife at the time, I'm divorced and remarried, but my wife at the time, I was sitting there and I had this weird thing happened to me was like, everything sort of phased out of the room, like, like faded.  And, and what he was saying, I wasn't hearing it. It wasn't like quite like an out of body experience, but it was very  weird, right? And a voice in my head, I wasn't hearing voices, just something in my head said, there's nothing more important  than what's happening here right now.  And not specifically meaning me and my wife sitting there talking to him, but What was happening in the room,  and I'm, you're going to do this for the

rest of your life. That was what I left thinking,

right? 

Mm.  

So I left thinking this, knowing this, I left knowing this,  and I thought, well, like, what am I going to do? I got to go back to school and get training. Uh, so I did, and it's long, so I'm leaving out

lots of details, but went back to school, got my master's degree, and got specialized training in, um, In sex addiction from American Association of Sex Addiction Therapists, Dr.

Weiss down in Colorado. So he was my mentor, Dr. Doug Weiss, and started my practice and just

grew from there. 

Mm. I'm curious. I want to go back to that moment where you first realized that it might have been an addiction or a compulsive behavior, whatever you want to call it.  When was the moment that it clicked for you? Because it sounds like it was a bit of a  kind of came at you and you didn't even see it coming.

But I'm curious about the moment where you really 

realized, oh, I this actually is causing a lot of, you know, 

Harm in my life. So 

exactly the moment, Jeremy. I was sitting alone in my house in the basement and the thought occurred to me, I cannot Be home alone with a computer that has access to the internet and not watch pornography.  So in step, in step language,  uh,  you know, we admitted we were powerless over alcohol and our lives have become unmanageable. I admitted I was powerless over pornography  and my life had become unmanageable. Now we can talk about the word powerless if you want or not, or we can leave it. I'm not for me. So  for me in that moment, that was Ultimately true and couldn't have gone deeper for me than that. At that moment.  I'm also not a guy that's like in 30 years, I'm going to be gone. I'm Paul and I'm a sex addict. Like once an addict, always an addict, that kind of thing. So I love the 12 steps because they've helped so many people, but I'm not, um, Just for reference, like people listening, I'm not a hard, I'm not a hardcore 12 step guy, 

yeah. I'm not a, 

that was the

moment. 

yeah, I'm not a hardcore 12 step guy either. And it's interesting. Cause I, I've read a lot of stuff about 12 steps and I've read through the steps and there's a lot of beauty in 

the steps themselves. And even just 

it's beautiful. 

The admitting you're powerless over the thing, but I also kind of have a thing like, well, I don't want to keep telling myself that story that I'm always powerless against this thing.

It's like, maybe I was powerless when I was in the addiction and now, you know, I'm becoming a person that is 

no longer powerless against this. 

So we could have a whole podcast about the 

nuances of that. I imagine. 

let's book another one for the

new year. Okay? 

Yeah, yeah. Um, but I love that, you know, that I always am so curious to talk to people, especially those of us who have gone through this experience, that moment of realization, because I think for so many of us, it's like crystal clear.

We remember it so clearly that moment when we realized, Oh, this is a problem. And I actually can't keep living this way. If I actually want to. Live a happy life or a fulfilling life. Um,  so I'm curious, you know, in terms of the, the schooling you did. So you, you got out of it, you realized you needed to break free.

You realized you wanted to do this work, that there was something powerful and actually not just overcoming yourself, but helping others. Uh, was there anything in the schooling that you got that really changed your life, like really transformative about how you approach this 

issue?  

No,  no, so, so I had a university degree and I realized I have to get a master's So I got a master's of counseling psychology. Not anything in there about, uh, compulsive sexual behaviours at all. No one, because no one teaches anything about it.  Uh, it was my training after I took with Dr. Weiss, um, to become a sexual recovery therapist that really influenced me a lot.

Um, so  The other stuff probably, Jeremy, was helpful in terms of, um, laying out, like, when you do a master's level education, it's, it's all, it's, it's quite generalized. So you're, you're looking at, like, different schools of thought and developmental psychology. One course on, you know, brain physiology, um, you know, CBT, the different modalities, talk therapy, DBT,  uh, solution focused narrative, but they don't really go deep into any of those sort of things, right? And trauma, probably one of the things I really realized early on. And actually from Dr. Weiss's teaching is 

 



85 percent of let's well, we'll just use the term sex

addicts just for let's just use that because it's

easier for now, but, uh, 85 percent of them have been sexually abused and 90 percent of them have some kind of emotional or physical or sexual

abuse. Right? So, so that was what led me to learn like. More about how to how to deal with trauma and treat trauma when I realized that because I did not know

that when I Got

into this 

hmm.  

so and it's of course incredibly important.

Mm hmm.  What would you say? So I'm not super familiar with Dr. Weiss and their work. What would you say is at the core of that work? 

Yeah, so he's  He's a little bit more about the 12 steps, but dr. Weiss like for me personally is Just a no no. He's a recovered addict like himself. He's a bit more that old school Pat Karnes. You

heard of Pat Karnes? 

hmm. 

Yeah, yeah. So, real pioneer. Dr. White's kind of a guru as well, um, in this field. He's been doing it for like 35 years. But just a very,  no nonsense, straightforward, like loving and compassionate, but no bullshit. A lot of behavioral stuff, a lot of homework, like you're, you're going to do these things and very focused on changing behaviors, right? Not just, not just holding your hand and crying about your feelings. Hey, there's a time and a place for that.

Absolutely. Okay. But sometimes there's a time and a place for like, um, you know, one of the things he always ingrained in us was believe behavior. He says, I believe what the addict does, not

what he says. I don't believe what he tells me. I believe what he does. And 

 

this is the only hope partners have, by the way, when partners come to me and go, I don't even know, I don't believe them.

I don't trust them. I don't know what to think. I said, well, you can believe behavior.  Does he go to a group? Does he go to therapy or coaching? Does he read books? Does he listen to podcasts? Is he

accountable? Is he checking in? Is he being open and honest? Is he keeping his bottom lines? There's eight things all observable. You can watch and see if he's doing it. Right.  So I'd say from probably from Dr. Weiss, that kind of approach is what I picked up. 

Yeah. 

Just that no 

nonsense. Like, this is actually a thing. You need to be serious about this. You need to just change your behaviors and start to be honest with 

yourself and be accountable 

Yeah. Well, and  Yeah. and I just thought of another thing, too, is that the sexual history and the template was really key, too, because I never, I would have never thought of doing that. So, he taught us about how we start from earliest memories, and we do a complete history of a person's sexual experiences, and it's absolutely fascinating. What you will find and and it really it really I see the light go on for a lot of clients to when they go through the history because they don't put the pieces together because everything they do in the way they act out everything about their relationship to sex has its roots in their experiences in their first 18 years of life.

Yeah.

you would have to go through that in a very mindful and conscientious way, like not just kind of bumble your way through it like a bull in a china shop. But, um, how do you, as a, as a therapist go into that work of, of helping someone kind of 

go through their past 

experiences?  

yeah. yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I probably somewhat of a bull Jeremy  sometimes, but it's like, okay, this is if you're my client, this is literally the conversation I would have. Okay, Jeremy, we're going to do a sexual history. So, you know, the purpose of this is to. You know,  tie everything, connect the dots, and you know, when you first came to me, you said you want to find out what the roots of this behavior was and why you are the way you are, so this is how we're going to find that out. So we're going to go 0 to 5. So in 0 to 5, what is your first memory of anything of a sexual experience, consensual or not consensual? And then it'll tell me. And then usually it's nothing, and I'll say, okay, let's go 6 to 10.  Well, uh, when I was eight years old, uh, the, the neighbor came over and, um, uh, or no, the, the, the, the neighbor came over and, uh, he wanted to show me his, uh, you know, he pulled his pants down and we did, you know, show me mine, show me yours kind of thing.

Okay. All right. So, you know, how old is he? The same age. Okay. Was there touching? Okay. Did, did, how did it feel? Did it feel weird? Did it feel sexual? You know, it felt kind of weird. Did you tell anybody? No, I didn't tell anyone. Okay. So here's the first pairing of secrecy and sexuality.  Okay.  Now, uh, let's go between, uh, 11 and 15. Well, when I was 11, the babysitter came over and, um, you know, she would get me to, she'd lift up her shirt and get me to touch her breasts. So, okay. And so what was that? Well, that was a little bit exciting. Okay. And did you tell anyone? No. And, uh, what did she say to you? Well, she said, let's just keep this between ourselves.

It'd be a little secret. So now we have the pairing of  excitement and secrecy and shame and, you know, lie like intentional deceit with sexuality. So you go through this and it's incredible because you just really, by the time they're done, it's like. There it is, all

laid out, 

It's like a fog lifted from, from the past. You just kind of see 

things clearly.  

Yeah, so I, I just go like, it's almost very like a, think of a police taking your

statement, 

And I'm curious, how does 

that help people heal? Like what is the 

purpose of that?  

knowledge and awareness,  insight, insight and awareness, right?  So, you know, so a guy comes to me, he's like, you know, ashamed. I like putting on women's underwear. Okay. I'm like, okay. So we go back and do a history. So we find out, uh, raised by a single mom,  alone a lot. She's lonely, needs not attended to, you know, and he'd go into her bedroom just to, you know, poke around, go in her drawers, see her underwear, pick them up.

He'd feel close to her, maybe,  like he was already forming a template of nurture and closeness with the feminine, with the mother, with the, you know, With, with underwear. Right. So it's going in his tent. It's imprinting him. Right.  And then when I just explained, they're like, Oh, I thought I was a fucking weirdo, like, sorry,

we allowed this 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All you want. 

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I just, you know what I mean though? They're like, I thought I was a fucking weirdo. And my wife thinks I'm like, whack,

you know? And I'm like. No, it's like

there It 

Mm. Yeah. It just explains a lot. It lets some of the shame melt away that, Oh, this isn't 

just me being  broken or perverted in some way. Like, Oh, there's reasons why, you know, this is the way it is right now.  

So that I would say that's how it helps them. Because, uh, you know, as you know, coaching guys with this, um, many of them are emotionally, um,  don't have a high emotional intelligence sometimes or are stunted developmentally. They're emotionally stunted at a certain age,  right? And tend to not be real in touch with their inner world because  You know, the way they deal with emotions is I act, you know, I have a feeling.

So I act out and it goes away and that works. So that's what they do for 10, years, 

you know? 

Yeah. It's so interesting how so much of this work, you know, it really does come down to emotional intelligence and learning how to work skillfully with your emotions, like how to not run away from loneliness or boredom or shame or whatever it is, but learning how to actually welcome those emotions. 

Mm. 

I think, a history is, uh, does a few things. So it brings awareness, understanding, which can then allow self compassion. It's like you were eight years old, you were lonely. You missed your mother.  Stop beating yourself up for being a weird pervert.  Okay. Yeah, that makes

sense. Okay.  

Okay. And then, you know, then that, uh,  like, like, I remember, I remember some, uh, Dr.

Weiss taught us too. He says, you know, in a session, you can give people information or you can give them an experience.  So, by taking them back through that, you know, and sometimes, yeah, it's painful, but this, it, they're sorry, there's no way to avoid the pain in the work, 

right? But like, what was that like?

You know, being so lonely and the feeling like this was the only way that you could feel close to your

mother. And, you know, you give them that experience of that. Is that what you're looking for now? Is this what's driving the behavior now?

hmm. Mm hmm. 

Yeah, I think it is. Okay. So what, what, what can we

do with that? Yeah,

Yeah. It reminds me of, I've had conversations with therapists who use a lot of internal family systems 

work and like looking at the 

I love that stuff's great. I'm not really super

trained in it, but that stuff's

great.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. What would you say, you talked a little bit about awareness and, and kind of self awareness. I'm just curious what the role is of mindfulness in recovery in your 

eyes.  

Huge.  It's huge. Right? So mindfulness is essentially.  Okay. So I,  Early on, I explain to clients,  let's say it's porn and sexting women and going on apps. Okay, that's the behavior.  So I give them this cycle I go through. And you probably have your own version of this, but this is just what I made up, right? And I say, listen, it's, it's, it's, It's totally predictable every time you engage in the behavior, the same steps happen and they repeat every time.  So it's something like trigger, euphoric recall, thought distortions, anticipatory excitement, altered state, you act out and then you crash. And I break it all down, I explain to them and everyone goes, Oh my God, it's like, are you a fly on my wall? This is my life. I'm like, uh huh,  and I stress a lot of the Neurochemical aspects of it early on like just to again.

It's sort of like get them out of that shame and it's like listen you are actually wired Naturally normally to be attracted to you know Attractive women or female beauty or other men if you're gay like I don't care. It doesn't matter You know But  

 

you've been hijacked because porn is a super normal stimulus.

I'm sure you use that word with people, right? So it's like, in a way you never had a chance. Like you show this to anyone's brain and like, they're gone. It's just, that's just what's going to happen. Right.  Um, so.  Once they understand, like, okay, here's the cycle and the same steps repeat, then we bring in, like, so before, so you have the trigger  and then you forward recall thought distortions, those are pretty easy to work through because you just, you get guys to go like, okay,  you know, I've been telling myself this bullshit, like, you know, it's no big deal.

It just be 5 minutes. No, no, no, she'll never find out. I'm not really cheating. I'm not as bad as the child molester over there and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we just sort of restructure that right. Okay. Like, like we reframe it, right? So that's not hard to do, but it's like, okay, listen, here's what I want you to do when you have the urge, because  this is how I explained it.

I don't know how you explained it, but it's like, while you were a kid and your parents divorced when you were seven, and then you were bullied at school and then you didn't make the hockey team. Okay. And then you discovered pornography and masturbation. So here's what happened.  You were lonely, bored, rejected, and felt inadequate.

What? And you masturbated to porn to feel better. Okay. 

So you do that a thousand times. So here's what happens is the loneliness and rejection  is immediately followed up by the porn and the masturbation. So they get fused together. They get paired.  So now when you feel lonely and rejected, it emerges like in your subjective experience as the urge to masturbate to pornography,  right?

And I can tell you get that because you do this work, right? That's like, head.  My head's blowing up for people that can't see the video here. Okay.  And I'm like, so they're like, Oh, okay. Right.  So now you got to slow down when you have the urge. And I give them a little formula, like pause, breathe, reflect, or, you know, something like that.  What, what's going on? Ask yourself a series of questions. mindfulness, right?  Oh, I have an urge to go look at pornography.  Okay. Let's just take a time out here. Okay. What's going on? Hmm.  Well, I, I have to give a presentation at work tomorrow. That's stressing me out. Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I had a little bit of a run in with my, my wife, uh, earlier today and we, you know, kind of left, kind of left that hanging.

So, okay. Okay. I see. I see. Okay.  You know, okay. So what, what can you do with that? Right. Well, um, you know, take a walk, hit the weights, vent,  chat with a friend,  uh, work it out in my own, like in my own head, like, just talk myself through it. You know,  the, I call those the remedies, right? So you have like the triggers.  And you

have your 

Yeah, but you need to 

what, what 

do you do with 

that? 

space in between so you can actually insert the remedy. 

Yeah. Are you familiar with that Viktor Frankl quote between stimulus and response? 

Yeah. Between stimulus and response, there's a choice. There's

a space, a space, right? What, what, well, what is the exact quote?

I, I 

Yeah. Well, it's, what's interesting is everyone calls it the Viktor Frankl quote, but it's actually not Viktor Frankl. It's actually Stephen Covey who is summarizing the work of Dr. Viktor Frankl. 

Um, but the 

heard of him too. 

yeah, the quote is between stimulus and response, there's a space and in that space is your power to choose your 

response. And in your response 

lies your growth and your freedom. And I think that's really it. It's like, as you're saying, you know, there's these autopilot responses where we get hijacked, our amygdala takes over, you know, we get these preconditioned responses. And mindfulness is the thing that actually helps us pause and actually notice what's going on before we just cascade all the way down that, that mountain, we can actually say, Oh, okay, what's going on in this 

moment. And Actually, is it just that I'm lonely? Is it that I'm stressed? Is it that my body feels tense? Like, what do I actually need in this 

moment? Rather than  the mind, which just thinks, Oh, you're stressed. So you got to go look at porn to push this emotion away. 

Yeah. Well, and asking yourself, what do I need right now?  Yeah, I have a presentation I'm doing at work tomorrow. What do I need? I'm just going to go double check my notes and make sure that I haven't missed anything. And then I'm going to forget about it and let it go. Okay. That, that sounds good. That sounds like a healthy response.  So when you're into trauma stuff, it's a little more complicated  when you're into, um, really deep seated, unresolved emotional emotions.

Well, let's go there. How do you 

work with that?  

Well, we'll, we'll pick, we'll pick something that, that happened. I mean, man, like it's so,  it's challenging this work cause, cause sometimes there's people's lives are so complex and there's so much has happened that, I mean, you know, it's like, where do I go, where do I

start sometimes?

Where, where do I start and where do I go with that? So,  you know, cause you. I mean, Jeremy, some people's lives have just been absolutely horrific on every level. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

They didn't have one single person that loved

them, 

Yeah. 

There was, I mean, 

this is, I was chatting with a client just the other day and just hit me so hard, you know, just, you know, he was dealt just such a bad hand in life, you know, 

and it just, it's like, of course, it makes sense that you would reach out to some coping mechanisms, you know, if, if that was the hand you were dealt.

It's like, yeah, you did, you know, you did what you needed to do to survive and to take care of yourself mentally and emotionally. And, and now we're trying to put those pieces back together, but. Of course, you know, those pieces were smashed, you know, when 

you were younger. Yeah, 

think probably the difference is  take out the extreme trauma. You have just the normal stressors of life and the triggers. And there's, there's people that self regulate through that and those that can't.  So with the more extreme trauma and intense emotion, you're going to teach. The grounding techniques and the self regulation. So that's what they attend to first.  So, you know, grounding techniques like 5, you know, um, breathing. I'm, I, I do, I love breath work. I do breath work. I just taught it to a client this morning. He doesn't know how to breathe.  Getting him to take seven or eight seconds on an in breath and hold it and seven or eight seconds on an out breath. He's never done that before. Right? And he's like, Oh, like I did it three breaths. He's like, I feel calmer. I'm like, uh huh.  You can do this anywhere. Any time because he'll he'll be in a restaurant, which his abuser would drive him to hockey, abuse him, take him out to restaurants. It was all part of the grooming.  So now he's sitting in restaurants with his family, having  Sweats and nausea and flashbacks and all that. So I said, okay, here's what you do. So you're grounding 1, you know, five objects, four colors, three sounds like that, right?  You're going to do some breathing. You're going to, uh, self talk I'm safe. I'm here. Put your hand here.  Breathing, you know, let's get back into your body.  That was then this is now I'm not in danger. Right. So I think with some of the more intense stuff where people.  Or dealing with that, you're going to, I'm going to spend some time working on that with them, which I guess is all mindfulness too, in a way, right?  And, um, teaching them to observe, be the observer. That's a really tricky, but very powerful when people get that, right? Like, I'm not, you're not your feelings, actually.  What do you mean? Well, you're not like they're, They're, they're real, but they're not reality, like, like your feelings aren't actually reality.  They're, they're just, if you want to really get down to it, they're neurons that are firing in your brain and releasing neurochemicals. That's actually all they are, right?  Um, so just getting back to that, um, observing. You know, Oh,  talk to yourself in the third person. Oh, I'm experiencing an urge to go masturbate to sexual material right now. 

The mindful awareness of what's 

hold it. Keep, keep holding it.  Keep holding that.  It's a cloud in the sky. See that cloud going by? That's you with the urge to masturbate to Barnaby. See it going?  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, you know, ride the wave, like whatever analogy, right? So they learn, I don't have to act on. Every impulse because when you start working with guys, that's that's how they live their life. I get an impulse. I just automatically act on it with no conscious thought. They're unconscious. It's like unconsciousness 

yeah, 

yeah, the 

autopilot response is just very 

strong there.  

Oh, yeah. 

Let's talk a 

little bit about shame because I think this kind of plays in, you know, both trauma and addiction and shame. What is the role that shame plays in 

addiction?  

Oh,  my gosh. I mean, that's a whole other

podcast in itself 

Yeah,  each one of these topics we could, we could 

do deep dives on. 

well, I'll address it on two levels. So let's say level one, someone who's been sexually abused or mistreated or physically or verbally abused has internalized. That they're a bad person because they were a child. And so all Children do this because adults are God like figures that can do no wrong. So whenever they're mistreated by an adult,  It's not, the child isn't capable cognitively of thinking mom or dad or uncle Joe or aunt Lucy are bad people and they're doing something bad. They're not capable developmentally of thinking that, but they are capable of thinking I must, for some reason,  I must have done something bad to deserve this. So they internalize the shame.  So they've been carrying that around in many cases for a long, long time.  So in a sense, um, anything that they do to validate and confirm the shame becomes, you know, it's very congruent to them, like that feels very.  It's, it's kind of weird to say it, but that feels like alignment to their core image of who they are.  Right.  Um, so  then there's another level of shame where  guys come in and I say guys, cause I work with women too, but it's mostly men I work with.  This is where you see, like, they're, they're kind of generally, we'll call them high functioning, successful adults. Maybe they had good childhoods.  But their,  their, um,  belief in themself is eroded  to such a degree because they, they're, they're successful in other areas, most areas of their life.

But in this one area, they can't seem to. Master this. They can't. All the rules go out the window. They keep breaking their promises to themselves. They keep lying to cover it up. They're lying to their wives. They know what's wrong. I don't ever have to. I never had to convince anyone. Lying to someone you love is a bad thing. They all know it is, but they still do it.  And now they're living a double life and it escalates and then they tell lies to cover other lies. You know, so there's the shame from just the, you know,  Confusion  and loss of self respect. I think  it comes from that what's wrong with me Why can't I I used to think this right? I'm like, I I don't get it Like I you know, I have a wife and kids. I own a townhouse in Richmond Hill. I have a good job I'm a successful account executive or a manager. I have you know, but I can't this one. I just can't stop watching pornography You kidding me? What's what's wrong?  It must be something wrong with

me. 

Yeah, there's interesting. It's like when you combine, cause shame as a isolated experience is really painful, but then there's almost this secondary component of when it's something like, as you mentioned, there's some high performing, you know, high functioning individuals where it's almost like, it's the one thing that's this hidden thing in the closet where the rest of their life is.

They're professionals. They're well respected. They have, you 

know, good family. And it's almost when you 

combine the shame with this imposter syndrome, where it's this hidden thing that if people knew about this one thing, how much more multiplied this shame would be. Because right now 

I can live under the illusion that at least I'm hiding it.

But if people really knew, cause that imposter syndrome, that kind of living the double life 

thing seems to be, you know, quite, quite prevalent for a lot of people. 

Well, I remember reading Pat Karn's, uh, 

 

four core beliefs of a sex addict. I'm a bad, unworthy person is one. Number two, if you really knew me, you wouldn't like me. Number three is I can never trust others to meet my needs. And number four is sex is my most important need.  And then, and then what happened is, what happens is  addicts eroticize their emotions, so everything becomes sexualized.  And that goes back to what I said as a kid, like, you feel lonely, rejected, unloved, you masturbate to pornography.  You're eroticizing your emotions. That, that is what you're doing when you do that, right? And so you grew up and now you're Uh, you know, you have a core belief that I'm a bad, unworthy person, but I'm really, I happen to be good looking and I'm a smooth talker and I can get chicks from the bar to go home with me. So now life essentially becomes about, you know, how many sexual encounters can I have to continually validate, validate my fragile self esteem.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's one of that kind of that whack a mole game. It's like, you're constantly just trying to catch up or, um, Just trying to fight off the feelings of insecurity or the feelings of unworthiness by you know, just get okay How can I get as many people to sleep with me or have as many?

External validations as possible to make me feel a 

sense of being okay when the core belief is I'm never going to be okay, no matter how 

much I get.  

And 

 

probably the most insidious consequence of living in shame is you

isolate yourself.  And so the very thing you need to be free, shame keeps you

from doing right. And, you know, when partners are asked me, like, why did he lie to me? I said, well, it's pretty simple. There's two reasons, uh, shame, his shame, and He told himself the lie that,  uh, he couldn't possibly hurt you more by telling you the truth.

So you're better off not knowing pretty much every guy

said that to me, 

Hmm.  

but, and then once it all comes out, you know, I see guys where six months into recovery, 12 months into recovery, you know, their shame still gets triggered,  like, like they'll be out and they'll be, well, they'll be watching a show on TV and maybe a sex scene comes on and the wife looks over and goes, Oh, I bet you, I bet you're enjoying this, aren't you?

You probably googled her, eh?  You probably jerked off to that skank, didn't you, you bastard, right? Like, these are things people say.  And his shame gets triggered. So I gotta teach guys, you know, how to regulate through that, how to hold space for her feelings. Because otherwise he'll go into defensiveness and anger. 

Let's, 

you're dealing with it all the

time. You're just dealing with shame all the

time. 

Well, how, 

 

what are some of the, the best tools for healing shame? Whether it's, you know, strategies, techniques, 

um, 

We'll tell you, tell, tell, your story.  And this is part of the magic Bill W. discovered with AA group.  Like, like essentially the idea to build up, you came with, it was very simple. We got to get guys together to tell their story. That was before he came up with the steps and all that stuff. It was get together and tell and be accepted.  And so I really promote groups a lot with guys. You know, and it's, it's not for everybody, everybody, I get it, but I'm listening, Hey, you go to a group and you tell your story and you don't die. Like, like Jeremy, the shame, like, I think people literally think they'll die if they

tell the truth. Like 

it

no, it's, um, have you heard that statistic? That, um, People are more afraid of public speaking than they are of 

death.  

I've 

And 

it's, it's, I mean, it's that, that sense of like that shame or being, you know, 

in the center, you know, having all the eyes on you. It's like, we are more afraid of shame than we are of death. 

Yeah. Well, here, You want to hear something  

You want to hear something wild? I've had guys, more than one guy has told me, uh, after a porn binge, for example, they watch porn,  they go out, you know, in public to whatever, get the groceries, and they literally think that everybody  that looks at them knows that they just came back from a porn binge. 

yeah, 

And they're like, you disgusting pervert. This is what's going

through their mind.  

And what's 

crazy, it's on a neurological level. Like, it's not even  All the people who know it, they probably know that, yeah, that there's no way these people could know that I just watched porn. But it's just the nervous system feels it. The nervous system feels that, oh my gosh, everyone knows I'm a monster.

Everyone knows I'm disgusting. Um, it's 

fascinating.  

Oh, yeah. 

Yeah. 

Uh, did I answer your question? How do, oh, so how do I deal with shame? So, uh, tell. Get support.  Talk to me. You know, that's, that's a good place. I mean,  you've probably found this too, where I'm the first person people have told things to.  in their whole life. And it's very humbling and I consider it a very privilege and I'm humbled by that, that they trust me. And I pretty much start, you know, my first session, I have a little blurb about, listen, I'm unshockable, I've heard it all, and I'm not going to judge you.  Okay. Cause you hear some pretty. Out there stuff,  right?  And so I reassure guys, uh, all the time, like back to our opening comments about, about shaming people and  I'm like, no, I don't know.

I don't know who they're talking about. Maybe other people do that. I've never done that,  you know? So, uh, what else? Um,  there's some reframing, like, like, uh, if we, if we look at it from a Like a CBT reframing perspective  of, um, especially when I get into the biology of it, it, it, the story, this is what we call like narrative therapy.

Like, so we have a story of, I'm a weak, pathetic person that keeps going back to porn with his dick in his hand every time he has a problem. That serves self narrative. 

Mm hmm. 

And then that becomes a reframe to,  because of,  Some difficult challenges in my life and some trauma.  I learned to develop a relationship to this behavior where I could find the soothing and comfort that I need.  And in that process, the reward system on my brain got hijacked through no knowledge of my own.  And it started to, you know, I thought I was driving the car and I'm starting to realize that someone else is driving the car and I want to get back in the driver's seat. See how more balanced that

is  and self accepting it is,

right? 

Yeah.  

So, but that's a process, right? So I don't know off the top of my head, that's probably some things I do to deal with

it, but,  but you know, there's no substitute for time, like just get in a group and share for a year, go every week for a year, come see me. And, and I think too, just information and people go and listen to other people on YouTube and maybe guys like you, and they're like, okay, man, there's like. Thousands of guys like me and we're all just good guys. Normal guys trying to get along, get through life and  it's okay. 

It's that aspect of 

realizing you're not alone, realizing you're not the only 

Oh, yeah. 

whereas  



I think so many people in the heart of their addiction, they feel like, I'm the only one who's messed up. I'm, you know, everyone else is a normal. You know, has normal sexual appetites and it's just got it all together.

And I'm this kind of messed up person. But when you start to see, Oh, there's other people like me, like I'm not alone. That does so much to heal the shame  

and then being in 

group and I love this, there's this quote I heard, I forget it was by Ann Voskamp, who I don't know who that is, but the quote is shame dies when stories are told in safe places. 

Beautiful. There you go. 

What are some of the, because I know you've worked with a lot of people, are there any common mistakes that you think you've seen that keep people stuck in their addiction or kind of keep people slipping up or relapsing? 

Um,  oh my gosh. There's quite a few. So one, I mean, there's just denial that can go on for years and years. This isn't a problem  and you have to minimize it in order to deny it.  Okay. So, and partners come to me astounded, mind boggled, baffled at how people. You know, how, how could he do this for 10 years and lie to me?

And it's like, well, it's not that complicated because  once you tell yourself something long enough and you actually believe it, it's not that hard. So what she doesn't know won't hurt her. No one's being hurt. And you know, at least I'm not say watching porn. At least I'm not cheating with real women. That, that's all he needs.  Really? And then he compartmentalizes that like men are really good at doing, you know, women don't understand the compartmentalization thing because they just have one compartment called relationships and emotions. They don't realize that men's lives are divided up into beer, sex, woman, wife, girlfriend, porn, hockey, work, kids. La Crosse,

like, right? 

I love the Canadian 

they don't, 

coming 

out in this podcast. 

maple syrup, mousse, igloos. 

Right? 

yeah. 

yeah. So, um, 

So they're minimizing and kind of, uh, denying, but 

minimizing is, is the first step 

to 

denial. 

But here's the other thing, Jeremy, and it just came to me the other day again with a new client. The absolute  normalization  of the objectification and sexualization of women. Okay.  Like it's, and when I say absolute, I mean, So, okay, so a guy, I'm thinking of a, this is real, all the stories I tell you are based on real people, obviously, I'm not disclosing any identifying information, right?  But a guy grows up and around 8 or 10, he finds that his dad has Playboy magazines.  So,  you have to understand that it's not just my dad had Playboy.

It's the most important male figure in my life who has god like status and is literally the embodiment of everything I aspire to be.  Keats A Stack of Magazines with naked women who are objectified.  Not only that, But, uh, Uncle Joe, when they go to his place, he has a calendar in the garage of a topless woman.  And not only that, but, um, my cousin,  Jerry, who's older, has magazines that he got from his dad. I'll just say magazines, because, you know, I'm old, but, you know, we'll just go with that, right? And not only that, but, you know, when I went to college and went into the heavy equipment industry, every single guy, without exception,  looks at porn,  and the shop lunchroom, where we eat lunch every day, is floor to ceiling,  Pinups and Sunshine Girls.  If you don't know what a Sunshine Girl is, go look it up. Actually don't, but it's, it's just, you know, it's uh, page 3 of the newspaper and it's a cute model. In the UK they're topless. They're actually topless. And this is a daily newspaper.  So, not only that,  30 percent of the guys I work with have affairs that they openly talk about.  Not only that, Every guy I work with goes to the strip club on Friday after work.  Not only that, at the hunting camp, everybody watches the porn there and talks about it openly.  Not only, like, I could go on and on.  So, you're, you, you, you're now 35 years old,  and this is as normal to, to you as,  brushing your teeth with Colgate  at the end of the day,

So the normalization is really a cultural and societal impact as well. 

Not a single narrative to the contrary.  Like when I say absolute, I mean not a single human being has ever inputted anything into this person's life, even bringing a remote critical analysis of pornography or the objectification of women. On any level.

Do you feel that's 

absolute.  

You know, with, 

with voices like yours, like mine, like there's 

a lot of people in this space who I think it, there is,  I mean, it's, it's, uh, You know, there's a lot of counter narrative. Obviously it's a small drop in the bucket compared to what's been out there for the last hundred years, but it does feel like something 

starting to shift.  

Well, no, you're right. And, and like, when I share these stories, these are guys talking about 10, 20 years ago, right? 

Yeah, in 

So, So, 

formative years, 

And, and for me, I mean, it was my stepdad had porn.  My dad had porn.  My grandfather ran a drive in theater and showed X rated movies. Those were some of his best nights.  Uh, my uncle had porn. Like, I was just, oh, I guess that's what everyone looks at.  So, you know, I had, I had a couple counter narratives

to that. But essentially, you know, it was normalized. But yeah, I mean, and, and I love it when celebrities like, um, Terry Crews,

you know who that 

Oh yeah. 

Big black

jack guy. Yeah. he openly talks about his struggle with

pornography. Like, all,

everywhere, 

Such, I 

fight the new drug. Okay. 

is such a great 

I love it. I love it. Yeah. So, so yeah, there's a bit of a counter narrative starting to come out and people, um, saying that, you know, hey, this, this isn't the greatest thing. And then even like from, uh, you have like from a philosophical, uh, point, you know, the Jordan Petersons of the world and like Andrew Huberman, the neuroscientist, like Andrew, Andrew Huberman, just a straight neuroscientist is like, this unearned  dopamine is terrible.

Yeah. Terrible.

Yeah. And this is what I, you know, I, I really do feel that, you know, more and more people are starting to address it with an objective lens or with the counter narrative lens of saying, Hey, let's, let's take a moment and look at Is this thing actually healthy? And maybe it's not as innocuous as we once thought as a society. 

I'm curious, you 

know, just my, my, last question for you. Cause I want to be 

respectful of your time. I know you got to 

I got, 

I got three minutes, unfortunately. But yeah,

there's someone out there who. is struggling. And let's just take an example of someone who is not in denial. They know they need to change and they want to change, but they just feel kind of stuck in their recovery.

Like they get some streaks going or some, some progress, but then they relapse. Is there any advice that you would have for someone who's in that position? Yeah. 

recovery is a team sport. Okay. So get some help.  Okay. If you could equate this on your own and guys do. Okay. You would have by now. So I'll say that if you're on your, let's just say third go around. I'm just pulling a number up here. If you're on your third time of, yeah, I, you know, I really got a quid and, you know, I'm doing a few different things and self binding behaviors and I have a filter and I'm telling, and you're still, uh, shit in the bed,  then get some help, coach, therapy, you know, call Jeremy, call me. Get in a group and get some help because I'm telling you, there's a lot of guys out there in the same boat as you. You can change. It is possible. Don't give up hope. But listen, Tiger Woods had a golf coach. Okay.  We all need help. We all need, if Tiger Woods needs a golf coach there, I don't need to, what else do I need to say? Okay. Why? Because he can't see himself swinging. He needs someone to give him input.  And you know, guys like me and you, I'm sure, you know, you're a coach, I'm a therapist, you know. We've been down this road. Are you, are you a recovering guy?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

you, yeah, yeah. Same. So listen, we know what we're talking about and we've been there.

Okay. And we can help you. And you know, I have a structure and a process I use. I'm sure you have a structure and process. You need a structure and a process there that I should have just said that right off the

bat. There you 

Well, I think in my mind, you know, those are both things because some people you can have structure in a process without the team 

sport aspect. But I really 

Hmm. Sure. 

you know, that, getting accountability being seen by others like is such a vital component that and I think you're right. Some people can do it on their own.

But if unless it actually worked, you know, to not just keep trying that again and again and 

again, but to say, Hey, I actually do need to get some support.  

Yeah. 

Yeah. Cool. All right. Last question. Where can people get in touch 

with you?  

Uh, sure. You can go to my website. Turning point for me. So turning point, the number for me.  com

All right. Well, we'll 

and, uh, 

all that in the show notes and make sure everybody gets the 

links to that.  

Hey, it was a great chat, Jeremy. Thanks for having me on. Let's

do it again. 

Yeah. We'll have a round two in the new year for 

sure. 

Okay.

Okay. Sounds good Have a great 

All right. Thanks everyone. Take care. Bye.